Calvinism -TULIP

Bob,

Not that I believe any of this but why wouldnt or couldnt God have just created the Angels and Adam and Eve predestined to make the choice that they all made? If thats the way He made everyone else?

Claudia

 

1. I have to say that if I am understanding this correctly then this entire thing is just plain stupid because then most of the Bible was written just for the heck of it... all the parts that admonish us or correct us or command us... since we are just going to go ahead and do what God has pre-programmed us to do anyway.

2. Not to mention the monster this makes God out to be that He would create people who cannot follow what the Bible tells us to do even if they tried.

3. To me the entire thing seems like a secret plot for people to just be lulled into believing that they are just going to somehow sail into heaven because God just programmed them that way.


Claudia

 

Okay now let me tell you how I REALLY feel LOL! :smilewinkgrin:

 

but then are you saying that those who have been pre-programmed to be lost are just out of luck when they read all this about their desperate need for God's grace?

and these who were unfortunate enough to be born that way are just doomed to burn forever and ever in hell?

Because thats what it seems to say in the Islamic religion... unless I read that wrong.

 

Romans 9:
11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24: Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25: As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26: And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

 

In the interest of fairness I posted the part in Romans chapter 9 that I think Joseph is referring to... so everyone can read that.

 

The Bible tells us NOT to harden our hearts:

Heb:3:15: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb:4:7: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


..which would be quite stupid and pointless if we HAD TO harden them... or else if we just COULDNT harden them...




This was taken from a commentary on how the heart of Pharoah was hardened:



How does the Lord harden the hearts of men? In the same way in which the heart of Pharaoh was hardened. God sent this king a message of warning and mercy, but he refused to acknowledge the God of heaven, and would not render obedience to His commands. He asked, "Who is the Lord that I should obey his voice?" {CC 89.2}

Had Pharaoh accepted the evidence of God's power given in the first plague, he would have been spared all the judgments that followed. But his determined stubbornness called for still greater manifestations of the power of God, and plague followed plague, until at last he was called to look upon the dead face of his own first born, and those of his kindred; while the children of Israel, whom he had regarded as slaves, were unharmed by the plagues, untouched by the destroying angel. God made it evident upon whom rested His favor, who were His people. {CC 89.4}

Every additional evidence of the power of God that the Egyptian monarch resisted, carried him on to a stronger and more persistent defiance of God. . . . This case is a clear illustration of the sin against the Holy Ghost. "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Gradually the Lord withdrew His Spirit. Removing His restraining power, He gave the king into the hands of the worst of all tyrants--self. {CC 89.5}

 

Because LOOK everyone...

Ex:8:15: But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

 

TO EVERYONE:

What do you do with the fact that the Bible tells us we have to DO all the things on this list to make our "calling and election SURE" ???


2 Peter 1:
1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.




Go back and read ALL the things it says in the previous verses you HAVE TO DO... to make your calling and election sure. Basically it is telling us we have to have an entire character transformation... the top of the ladder being "LOVE" or charity



THAT is true Bible Election. God votes and the Devil votes but it is you who decides who is going to win the election.


Claudia