Calvinism Vs. Arminianism Vs. Biblicism

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Jordan Kurecki, Nov 14, 2014.

  1. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    here is a link to something my Pastor wrote on this topic, he comes from a very unique background in that one of his parents held to Calvinism and the other held to Arminianism, the position.

    http://cbctinleypark.org/assets/calvinism.pdf
     
  2. Yeshua1

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    when one really comes to grips with just what happened to all of us as a result of the Fall, then we have to accept that sinners just cannot come to God any more as a direct result of their own "free will"

    By seeking to have God and man co operating and becoming mutually involved in our salvation, that will appease ther desire to have us part of the salvation process, but not true to the scriptures!
     
  3. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    Your statement that sinners cannot come to God is not found in scripture.

    You claim a sinner is totally corrupt and unable to come to God, but Sinners do good things like give to charity, feed the homeless, lost people are able to resist the temptation to commit adultery, to lie, to murder...

    if they are able to do these things, what makes you think they cannot choose to come to God? every person has a conscience, and they make decisions to do good and evil, Sinners can choose to come to God if God's spirit draws him. the drawing is not irresistible as it is shown in scripture that he can be resisted.

    Did you even read the paper?
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Yes I did, and what struck me is that while he tries hard to come to a balance in his mind between two positions, basic problem still the same to face, as man as a sinner cannot wilfully come to God, as our sin natures are in a state of rebellion!
     
  5. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    How come a sinner can choose not to lie, but cannot willfully come to God?

    Why does God command all men everywhere to repent in Acts 17 if it is not possible?

    I find no verse in the bible that says sinners cannot willfully come to God, I see countless of examples of God telling people to come to him, and saying whosoever will may come.
     
  6. JamesL

    JamesL
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    Ah, the sin nature myth.

    And the choice myth.
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    This statement misrepresents the non cal view.
     
  8. convicted1

    convicted1
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    Please expound on why you call both these as myths, please...
     
  9. OldRegular

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    John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    How so?
    As the classical non cal viewpoint is thatJjesus died for all sinners, and that God provided the same Grace towards all sinners, so that those saved by God would be on the basis of them deciding freely to accept Jesus and get saved....
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Ahhh....cause we are void of a sin nature, right James?:saint:
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Clever.....you used scripture.:smilewinkgrin:
     
  13. PreachTony

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    How then do you reconcile the scriptural record of God Himself, in the form of the Son, lamenting the unwillingness of the people to turn to God if it is not within their ability to turn to God?
     
  14. T Alan

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    I fully confirm the Doctrines of Grace. I believe that in order to share the Gospel it, to be accurate and faithful to biblical teaching, must include the atonement for those chosen before the foundations of the world whose names were written in the Lambs book of Life at the same time.

    Also, I have been involved in several "Calvinist-Arminian Debate groups" for more than 5 years. I have yet to see 1 single person convert to the "other side".

    It helps one sharpen their argument to use against lesser debaters but has never changed a heart. Only God can open the eyes.

    Anyone else know of a convert to the opposite side?
     
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Yea....me....Convicted also.
     
  16. T Alan

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    Would you mind briefly sharing the circumstances and if one, the particular verses or arguments that you feel swayed you. (Not trying to hijack this thread but your the first I've heard of)
     
  17. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    Yes, No person can get saved except the father draw them... Sinners need God's grace to draw them and save them...

    But nowhere does these verses teach irresistable grace.

    David Cloud:

    "John 6:37 -- “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

    If “irresistible grace” is taught in this passage, it is for all who believe on Christ and not merely for a special few who were sovereignly pre-elected to be saved.

    This verse does not say that God has sovereignly pre-chosen only some for salvation and that it is those pre-chosen ones that are given to Christ. One must read all of that into the verse. It simply says that all that the Father gives will come to Christ. The question is this: “Who is it that the Father gives to Jesus?”

    That question is answered plainly in this passage only three verses later: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day” (Jn. 6:40). (Of course the Calvinist argues that it is only the elect who can “see the Son,” but one must read that into the verse.)

    Thus, all those who believe on Christ are given by the Father and they are received and are not cast out.

    John 6:39 -- “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

    We have explained this under John 6:37. Verse 40 says that those that are given by the Father are those who believe on Christ.

    John 6:44 -- “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    This is an important statement and it teaches that men cannot be saved apart from divine drawing. Sinners do not seek God on their own (Rom. 3:11). If John 6:44 stood alone, apart from the rest of the Scripture, it would be possible to see Calvinist Irresistible Grace in its language, but it does not. The Lord Jesus plainly taught that ALL men are drawn. “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me” (Jn. 12:32). Not only that, but He also said that ALL men are given light. “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (Jn. 1:9). Further, the Holy Spirit has come to “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” (Jn. 16:8). "
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    There are many....they go both ways in fact. I was a RC (lapsed) and I had been going to various Reformed Churches but nothing ever penitrated. Like any born & raised Catholics I was taught to believe that Christ saves any and all that come to him.....and he does....but that mitigated the cross as merely a good deed by Christ & that it saved nobody. In the recesses of my mind it was inept.

    Well if the Death on the Cross was inept then why not question the full validity altogether? I have a atheist woman friend (again raised as a RC) who bluntly told me that the thought of Christs dieing for our sins is just nonsensical & to use her words, "Just BS"

    This is the lollypop Christ that is truly a sucker.....didnt die for anyone, that I believe turns people off...doesnt make sense. BUT if he died for those who were given to Him by the Father......oh then light dawns.

    Scripture....ah simple. Our Brother OR quoted earlier:

    John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    Now if you really want to throw this OP off kilter, then ask me how I came to the "Old Schoolers" particularly when there are no Old School Churches in my state of New Jersey! LOL Perhaps that's another topic for another time!
     
    #18 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 2, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2014
  19. Iconoclast

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    why is david cloud a false teacher?..lets look.

    As long as this is in the bible,those who oppose it can just go home:thumbsup:

    There is no if....ALL the Father gives....SHALL COME. Looks very effectual.. all that are given shall come.

    It was for a multitude of sinners that God has elected to receive mercy in His Son.....saying a "special few" is a wicked caricature.
    It is crystal clear the God's election happened before the world was...again this terminology..."pre- elected"...distorts God's plain declaration of ELECTION.

    Only a blind false teacher could miss the clarity here....

    The biblical fact of election means...ALL.... do not get saved. His whole evil teaching is based on his rebellion against the truth of God.

    The Father has NOT given everyone to Christ. Jesus owns the rights to all men, yet He dies for those given to Him as their surety, that is why they are saved.
    the only person who read anything into this are david cloud and others who do not believe the truth.
    Does it need to say anymore? All the Father gives.....if you are not given, you are not coming:laugh:

    The Sheep
    The elect
    Those in Covenant with the triune God
    Wheat
    Sinners saved By Jesus mediatorial work

    That is what is revealed in scripture...all 66 books.
    No where is this idea taught in scripture at all.:(




    The scripture has explained it already from 37-39....vs 40 announces the results.

    John 6:44 -- “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    The statement in it's context explains it completely....to run to another section of scripture like false teachers do, and attempt to have a verse contradict this passage is evil.

    [/QUOTE]


    This is wicked twisting and wresting of scripture. David Cloud and his falsehoods are to be rejected.:wavey:
     
  20. savedbymercy

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    jk

    Once they are being drawn, they are saved. Being drawn is evidence of the New Birth !
     

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