1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Calvinism's circular contradictions

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Jun 6, 2004.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    2
    You are taking this verse entirely out of context and making it sound as if Paul is issuing an urgent command to preach. That's not at all what this passage is about. Let's look at it in the ENTIRE context.

    14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

    Notice how God is in control of the entire process -- it is God who sends the preacher.

    It is also God who determines who has ears to hear...

    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, who has believed our report?" 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Now here's the interesting part. As I've pointed out before, the "word" in "word of God" is not "logos" but "rhema", which means "utterance". Granted, this is only my interpretation, but I interpret that to mean that when God says so, a man will have ears to hear.

    If my interpretation is correct or even close to the mark, then the next part makes perfect sense...

    18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

    "Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
    And their words to the ends of the world."


    Paul just got done saying that faith comes by hearing, and hearing [having EARS to REALLY hear] comes by the utterance of God. Now if the latter does not mean "having EARS to REALLY hear", then it is contradictory to say that faith comes by hearing, Israel DID hear (vs. 18) yet they did not have faith.

    While I'm in the process of dispelling myths, let me tackle another one with vs. 20.

    20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

    "I was found by those who did not seek Me;
    I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me."


    That pretty much destroys the claim that the difference between those who are saved and those who are not is that God gives faith to those who (of their own free will) seek Him.

    To what passage(s) are you referring?
     
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    I recieved a discount coupon in the mail for JCPennys today along with the rest of the people in my town. Proving that not all of us used the coupon to get a discount is not proof that we didn't have the ability to get a discount.

    So too, showing that some Jews heard but didn't not respond in faith doesn't prove it was not in their capasity to do so.
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    2
    Again, the original analogy was not meant to prove election, it was meant to invalidate the absurd conclusion that receiving a gift REQUIRES action on the part of the receiver. It does not. As I pointed out, I can deposit $100 into your bank account, and you will have received that gift without your knowledge, let alone your will or action. Whether or not you spend that $100 is no longer an issue of whether or not you received the gift -- it is an issue of whether or not you used the gift, or how you used it. But you already received it.

    By the way, I assume JC Penneys sent out the discount to every human being on earth, right? Otherwise, JC Penny's is unfair and should be boycotted. (One absurd analogy deserves another.)

    By the way, you still haven't told me what passages you're talking about regarding the blood of men.
     
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    I'm sorry, I see your confusion. I was addressing this quote of yours

    Proof the some Jews heard but didn't have faith is not proof that they didn't have the ability to believe. That was the point of my analogy, I wasn't try to refer to your point concerning passive receiving...I agree that one could recieve something passively.

    I've never made that claim about Calvinism. God would be fair and just to condemn us all to hell.

    Sorry, I need to look them up and I'm don't have my tools with me now. I remember there is a reference in Acts by Paul when speaking to the Jews. And I know there is another one in the OT, maybe one of the prophets....I'll get back to you.
     
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    Here is the Acts passage I was thinking of:

    Acts 20:25 "And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face. 26 "Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God.

    Here is the OT one, I think there may be others but these are what I found online real quick:

    Ez. 3:16 At the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 17 "Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman R80 to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn R81 them from Me. 18 "When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood R82 I will require at your hand. 19 "Yet if you have warned R83 the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered R84 yourself. 20 "Again, when R85 a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle R86 before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 "However, if you have warned R87 the F42 righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself."

    BTW, I don't pretend to know exactly what all this means. I just mentioned them because they seem to apply and I would like to know how you reconcile them.
     
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    2
    The context you gave is misleading. When Paul says "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God", the "you" to whom Paul is referring are the elders of the church.

    17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. 18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: "You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, 19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; 20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. 24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
    25 "And indeed, now I know that you all [all you elders], among whom [along with whom] I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you [elders] this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you [elders] the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.


    All he's saying is that he's done his best to do his duty to train the elders to carry on the preaching he started. (Later he warns that false teachers will corrupt the church anyway, which I find interesting, since it implies this has been divinely revealed to him.

    Out of curiosity, when Paul says, "I'm innocent of the blood of all men", does he mean "all men" as in "every man who has ever lived, lives, or will live"? Does "all" mean "all" here, or does it mean "all of those men to whom I have preached the Gospel, and/or through whom you elders have also preached the Gospel you received from me?" Or does he mean "all men" as in "both Jews and Greeks"? I'm really curious because Arminians seem to believe that "all" means "all men who ever lived, live and will live" and cannot possibly mean some subset of men.
     
  7. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    I don't dispute the "all means all" arguement.

    What about Ez. 3?

    And concerning Acts, what blood is he refering too? If they are elders and believers what risk is their being blood that Paul would be guilty of if he didn't preach the whole counsel of God to them?
     
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    No answer Nick?
     
  9. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    2
    On the off chance that you misunderstood, I told you in another thread that I will not be responding to your posts anymore. That means all threads, not just that one.
     
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    Oh, I missed that one. [​IMG]

    Someone who is actually here to debate the issues instead of make unfounded accusations and untrue criticisms want to pick up here?
     
Loading...