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Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Apr 7, 2015.
Can Calvinist explain?
First of all, SBM most definitely does not speak on behalf of good Calvinists.
Second, God's foreordination can be described as both active (doing) and passive (allowing)...positive and negative. The passive side of God's foreordination of sin prevents Him from being the author of sin. Allowing someone to do what their nature drives them to do is not the same as making that person do it.
In order to be the author of sin you must first be a sinner.
You are not addressing the OP point. Calvinist declare God is the Potter who made the vessels of wrath, they had no choice!
Umm...I actually did address the OP. You would agree that God made everyone—sinners and believers. Yes, God made sinners but he doesn't make a sinner sin. There's a difference.
Right on Rev Mitchell!
I posted this on another thread, but it relates here, thus I am posting it again
As a primitive Baptist, I do disagree with Calvinism on the issue of justification (on most other points I am in agreement), however to be fair, being a former Calvinist, most mainstream Calvinists do not believe/teach that God is the author of sin. See quotes below for support of my assertion-
“ This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do. Such a view is indeed a monstrous assault on the integrity of God. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers.” (RC Sproul, Double Predestination)
"...God is not the author of evil.”( John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169, emphasis mine)
"CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE
Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein" (1689 Baptist Confession of Faith)
Everything that happens is by God's will, however there is a permissive will and a non-permissive will. God's permissive will simply allows something to happen (this would be the case with sin), his non-permissive will directly causes something to happen by working in the creature (e.g. regeneration, good works as the fruit of the Spirit, etc.).
God's divine purposes cause even the most evil acts of men such as the crucifixion of Christ to work out for greater good. The crucifixion of Christ is the most act of men the world has ever seen, but God made the crucifixion into his redemptive plan for sin for his people, and the greatest act of love of all time. "
And what Calvinist is going to disagree with 1689 Confessions. OK well maybe Presbyterians, however the Westminster confessions mirror the ole 1689 (I put them first cause I'm a Baptist) :love2:
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
I agree but they say a stupid question is the one that is not asked. Not asking to start an argument only for understanding and enlightenment. What are you going to do with verse seven. I make peace and create evil... Brother Glen
It's definately the logical conclusion.
I like this quote from Dave Hunt's book, "What Love is This."
'Evil' can also be translated as......distress, misery, injury, calamity...
So God can send misery, calamity, distress, injury and that is not sin. look at the 10 plagues in Egypt duirng Moses' days...
And Susanna Wesley had no idea what she was talking about. Man does posess a 'freedom of the will'. TBS, the will of mankind is bound by its nature. Change the nature change the will....
Man has a free will that is bound by his nature to always choose death? No, That is what is called an oxymoron. Either man has the free will to choose between two options, or man is not free to choose at all. Can't have it both ways, and Calvinism certainly isn't the biblical way.
Death is the only viable option unless God first moves that person. Man is bound in sin, chained in sin, a slave to sin. That doesn't sound anything like a free will to me.
That's called a biblical truth. :thumbsup:
Where was Pharoah's free will at...the Pharoah during Moses' time? Where was Goliath's free will at when he wanted to kill David and feed him to the birds? Where was Jezebel's free will at when she sought Jeremiah's life?
None of these, nor you and I, ever posessed a free will. Our will moved freely within that nature we had as fallen creatures. It was only after God moved us by His effectual calling that we could respond positively to the gospel calling.
There ain't 'both ways' just One way, Jesus Christ.
Christ is what makes us free, as the truth, if it sets us free, we are free indeed. There's no free will, just self will, as Brother Iconoclast previously stated...
It's called a theological antinomy.
I am not sure I understand your question. Are you inferring it can't be answered?
What about Pharaoh?
The Lord speaking to Moses said:
Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
--This is before Moses ever set foot in Egypt. Pharaoh had already hardened his heart by his own decision, his own will. God did not force his hand. God only hardened what had already become a hardened heart.
David chose to go up against Goliath. It was Goliath's decision to go up against Israel and taunt Israel and go against anyone that Israel would send against him, including David who Goliath mocked. God never forced him. The decision was all from Goliath--cursing and all.
You have your facts a little mixed up here. Jezebel sought Elijah's life, not Jeremiah's. She made that decision after Elijah had killed 450 of her prophets, prophets of Baal. It was a decision born out of revenge and possibly embarrassment--that one man could defeat so many of her prophets. She sword that she would kill this man, and Elijah in a moment of weakness fled. Are you blaming this on God? Really?
Jezebel made this decision out of her own wicked heart. God did not force her. She was the most wicked queen to ever rule Israel. She became that way because of the perpetual evil decisions that she continued to make. Do you think she had to be the most wicked queen that Israel eve had? She made the choices of her own will to earn herself that distinction.
Ummmm, you just made my point. Goliath, Jezebel, and Pharoah freely acted in accordance within their will. Their nature precluded they act as they did. Their hatred towards God and His people...
Goliath did not have to go up against David, he chose to.
Jezebel did not have to go after Elijah, she chose to.
The both could have chose better options. I do not prove your point at all.
It defeats it.
Look at it this way. When Jonah went to Nineveh, some of the most cruel people of that time, they chose to repent. According to you they should have strung Jonah up by his toenails. But they didn't. They chose to repent.