Calvinist churches targeted by Florida Baptist Convention

Interesting. Is the "conservative resurgence" going to devour itself, as some of us predicted would eventually happen?

 

You just will not stop, will you?

As has been stated to you numerous times in the past, each SBC is autonomous. Each church determines its own destiny. If the churches in Florida do not like what the state organization is doing, they can stop funding them. Each church has a right to set up its own by-laws, Constitution, and covenant. The church may choose or not choose to include free will vs. soverignty.

We have had pastors that adhere to Calvinism, and those that have not. There does not seem to be a problem, nor with the churches that surround us in this community. While in my mind there is no doubt about the soverignty of God, there is also no conflict between this and missions or evangelism.

But then again, all that was said above are well known facts. That is not your purpose. Your purpose is just like the thread you just posted a few hours ago, to look for opportunities to demean and belittle the SBC. What do you do, go to your search engine several times a day looking for articles that point out division within the Convention? Pesonally, I dont think you care about the sovereignty of God or free will. Its like the prayer language. It is an opportunity for you to document dissention.

 

He gave no comment... he's just reporting the news.

And this is a very timely article... especially as it comes just before the Convention.

I'm certain he knows this... But isn't it foolish that the Florida leadership thinks it is a good idea to bash the beliefs of a significant number of its own supporters because the "old guard" is losing their tight control on the hearts and minds of the average SBCer? In days past, the old guard got away with demonizing those who had ethical and theological issues with Paige Patterson's crusades (they generally called them "liberals", even though most were not).

Yet the Florida convention and the "old guard" seem to think there is, and will use convention resources to spread their views.

Watch it! You're judging motives.

I doubt it. Most likely he subscribes to the ABP e-mail news feed because this story hit my mail box less than an hour ago and I almost posted it myself.

Again... you're judging motives, and I'm guessing you're judging falsely.

 

There is no doubt that the articles you are using have some element of truth in them. That is not the point. In fact, that statement is a strawman. The point is, the purpose for which you use the articles. The accuracy of the sources and articles is not the issue, your agenda is.

 

==Look, it maybe that at some point in the future Calvinist Baptist Churches will be forced out of the Southern Baptist Convention. The Southern Baptist Convention seems to be heading in a popular, and not Biblical, direction. Want proof? Look at their BaptistPress website. Most of the "news" articles on there in recent months are fluff. I would also point to the election of Bobby Welch and Jack Graham as president of the Southern Baptist Convention. As for Jerry Vines, anyone who considers "Calvinism...a threat to Baptist life" is ignorant of Baptist history and does not deserve a place of leadership in any Baptist church.

 

Martin,
I highly respect your opinions and insights. It is obvious that there are problems with the SBC. Thank God we do not have a hirarchy. The work of the SBC is done with the local church.

It is up to the local churches to change the leadership. Regardless of the problems, much good has done for the Gospel through the SBC.

The difference between your post and the originator of this thread is that your thoughts are reasoned out and rational. The other is nothing but bashing the entire denomination in thread after thread. I wouldnt dare make a hobby of demeaning another faith in Christ, as I have no idea how God is using them in His plan.

 

The articles stand on their own merit. Your agenda does not.

 

I thought the article was well written. It identified the Executive director and one of his associates as using intimidation and misrepresentations of Calvinism to promote an agenda and to cause disruption in the convention.

He may have also inappropriately used convention money. He certainly appears to have been less than candid about how the money would be spent when it was requested.

The folks who are claiming Calvinists are dishonest, divisive, and prideful have demonstrated by their actions that they are all the things they claimed the Calvinists to be.

The Calvinists have demonstrated themselves to be thoughtful and longsuffering and humble when confronted with the mean-spiritedness of those who have targeted them.

peace to youraying:

 

The article is well written, and in all likelihood true. However, I would bet it was not the intent of the author of the article to bring about an indictment of the entire SBC, including the local churches.

It is one thing to point out problems, maybe to offer solutions. It is quite another to make a hobby of negative comments towards a faith, multiply the problems, and offer no solutions.

By the way, I put myself in the Calvinist camp. The point here is not how calvinists are being handled at the convention level (although that needs addressing), the point here is about an agenda.

 

There are some folks here who must speak out of their frustrations. When they post enough, they eventually reveal their bias and never-ending contradictions. Don't fall into the trap of assuming you know other people's motives.

That's free advice and it's only worth about 1/2 of what you have paid for it.:smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

Your point is well taken. Most Christians working at the local church level are trying to spread the Gospel, help others, and show the love of God throughout the community. I doubt 99% of people involved in ministries take note of the nonsense at the convention level. Like I said, our denomination is unique. Each church is autonomous. If a local church does not like what is going on, work to change the leadership. If enough churches stop sending support, things will change. Along with pointing out problems, solutions must be offered. Since God saved myself, wife, and two children through SBC ministries, I see nothing positive of creating multiple threads to tell how bad the SBC is. I dont do that to other faiths, and expect the same.

 

Well stated. The problem is a lack of history. A fellow pastor of mine is also SBC and he a consistent calvinist.

Spurgeon's Down Grade Controversy should teach us all a lesson. By the way, I am a proud calvinist, and according to Spurgeon it is just a nickname for what is in the Scripture.

At any rate, each church is autonomous.

 

I have to agree. While I have no love for hard-line five-point Calvinism, this kind of attack is just plain wrong.

There is more right with Calvinism than there is wrong, and, in any case, it is one of the two historic strands of Baptist life that joined to create the SBC. If Patterson's old guard is going to try to demonize and drive out Calvinists in the same way that they did to non-fundamentalists (that is, theological moderates, non-fundamental conservatives, and a handful of real liberals), somebody needs to communicate that.

Thirty years ago, the internet did not exist in its present form and it was hard to communicate with those who were accused. Just think what Wade Burleson's reputation would be like if he didn't have a platform to respond to all of the false accusations made against him! The old guard may finally learn that the regular people in the SBC won't beleive lies anymore since they have access to both sides of the story. And it won't be a day too soon. :applause:

 

This article is important b/c it tells of an underlying facism in the SBC leadership culture. "If you're not for us you're against us" is the mentality, and is not to be the mentality for the church. Calvinism isn't my cup of tea, but it is one of the most biblically sound arguments for theology out there.

My pastor and I were talking about this topic the other day and while we both differ on our particular views of the more sublime issues, the one thing remains true about this entire issue. Regardless of your theology, is your theology standing as a reason to go out and make disciples or does it stand in the way of your making disciples? Calvinism, at least what is mostly practiced in the SBC, is inherently evangelistic and awfully credible imho. This is another example of facism in the SBC.

probably one of the poorest points I've ever read around here, and there are a lot of very poor points.

 

This is an excellent point. Back in the day (mid to late 1980s) when I was fully in support of the takeover movement, the people who were guiding me in the movement would repreatedly emphasize that Jesus said, "If you are not for me, you are against me" and (of course) would place the theological and political movement in the SBC as personifying the work of Jesus. Those who did not go along with everything that Paige Patterson and company were advocating were enemies of Jesus and were fair game for attack and castigation.