Calvinist claim they are elected.

bygrace4012,

[John 6:29] Jesus gave them this answer, `This is carrying out God's work: you must believe in the one he has sent.'
[Mark 11:22] Jesus answered, `Have faith in God.
Jesus in saying "have faith in God" commands us to POSSESS something, NOT TO DO SOMETHING. Possessing something is not a work where doing something is a work.

So, in order to complete the Father's work in YOU, you must possess faith in the one He sent.

Treasure is an accountable possession, it is something that you have, not something you do. One must account for the possession, AND the lack of possessing that which was commanded. FAITH in GOD is a treasure, therefore it must be possessed, not performed!

Let's see now. If you manage to get into heaven you must ask the questions of yourself. "How did I get here?" "Was it by something I did, or something that I possessed?" "Was it something that Jesus did that Caused me to possess what I have." No sir, entry into heaven is not by what you do, it is by what Jesus did that enabled you, with your possession of Faith, to have. You have no works that can get you into heaven. It is by your possession of FAITH ALONE whereby you enter heaven. Where did you get this possession? Faith cometh by hearing and Hearing by the Word of God. It does not say or mean that faith is earned by hearing, but rather that faith is gained, is the result, of hearing the word of God. Not of works lest any man should boast! In the area of "hearing the word", no man has an edge on any other. Hearing the Word is well within the abilities of ALL men!

In order for one to have faith, one must first believe the Word. Believing is the first "baby step" of FAITH. One never starts out with mature faith.

If you believe but don't confess, how is your belief manifested? What good is belief that lies dormant? James says that "faith without works is dead". Which is another indication that having faith, as commanded, is not a work, else James would have said "works without work is dead".

Believing is the result of choice! Belief is the result of believing, Faith is mature believing.

God is the giver of Salvation. Salvation, God's free gift is given to ONLY those who POSSESS faith in Him. Again, Faith is a POSSESSION not a work. Ephesians 2:8,9 is saying this: For while God's Grace prevails, we are saved through faith. And not of ourselves, being saved is the gift of God, not something we earn lest we boast. Faith is a POSSESSION, an attribute (something true of the one possessing the attribute) not a work.

According to your logic here, Love, Mercy, Justice, Kindness, Meekness, etc. are ALL works. Paul describes them as fruit of the spirit (attributes) that one POSSESSES. It is the possession of these Attributes that causes us to produce the works of righteousness that we do, and not the other way around.

I did some work, I read the Word of God. By reading the Word of God, I gained knowledge, the same as we all do when you read any book. Knowledge causes our God given intellect to process it and arrive at conclusions. We cannot stop that from happening, it is what God in creating us implanted in us. Our brain, mind, cognizance, intellect etc. what ever one chooses to call it, sorts through the knowledge and files it in the databank. The spirit of man is continuously reviewing the stored data and when there is a cohesive collection of data, the spirit accepts that data and it forms a single belief. Many "beliefs" on the same topic, or about the same object, collectively become faith in the object of those beliefs. So, FAITH cometh by Hearing, and Hearing by the word of God! FAITH is the result of work, but it is not itself a work, it is a POSSESSION! FAITH is THE possession (attribute) in Man that God uses to select those who receive His free Gift of Salvation. For by grace are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH.

 

I disagree with this statement This is why....

...Eph 2:8 states that Grace comes through Faith Plainly put. No Faith, No Grace. And to top this off Grace is something we receive at the throne of Grace.</font>[/QUOTE]That is not what Paul is telling the Ephesians! Grace does not come through faith, it is solely of God!

Therefore, It is by God's grace, that we can come to faith which comes by Hearing God's Word. By having, that is, Possessing FAITH WE ARE SAVED (By God), and NOT of Ourselves it (being saved}, is not of ourselves, But is instead the Gift of God, Not of works that we may do.

Once I have Grace I'm saved. If we have the Grace of God that saves. More Grace isn't possible. We are already in His favor. We are in His favor because we have faith</font>[/QUOTE]If you believe you are saved because you have grace, you are sadly deceived. There is no salvation in grace. NO scripture supports that idea.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to identify the definition of Grace that indicates "power to save". Or that says because you have it, you are saved.

Faith does have such a definition!

 

If faith was God's appointed gift to some, He would not have said in Heb. 11:6, that ' . . . without faith it is impossible to please Him.' If Jesus was handing out salvation, it would make this verse stupid, if you get my point?

 

NO, my argument is not with Paul, it is with your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8,9. You say it says,

If you understood Grace you COULD NOT say it that way. That is why I posted the definition of Grace, so that you can see the essence of Grace. If Grace comes through faith, Jesus could not have said "whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life". It was while God's grace prevails that we can come to have faith in God the Son. Grace precedes Faith, and NOT vise versa.

Grace is the condition in which sinful man can continue to sin and not receive Justice for those sins. Grace is the way in which God views His creation. If Not, God would immediately destroy His creation because of man's sins.

God's Grace is present today so that all who hear and believe can do so.

We know his grace is present because His justice is withheld from us. AND, like the rain that falls on the just and unjust alike, ALL mankind is under God's grace. You are quite simply wrong about faith preceding grace! By the way, God has only one grace! He does not have a grace for this and a grace for that, and a grace for something else. Grace is manifested in the behavior of the one possessing it. God is behaving with favor toward mankind so that mankind can hear his word, and believe in Him, and God the son.

That is my argument with you, you are deliberately misreading Ephesians 2:8,9 and you do so because you fail to understand both faith and grace. Grace has no power to save, but the one manifesting grace does have such power. Likewise, FAITH has no power to save, but those who possess faith are selected for Salvation by the one who has the power to save. Grace is the environment, Faith is the catalyst, and being saved by God is the result!

Faith and Trust are the same thing. Neither faith NOR grace has the power to save. Regeneration is believing, for what you believe you act on! You are not regenerated until you believe in the regenerator. It is the belief that you have that regenerates you.

Man is capable of being regenerated into anything, there are tons of books that explain the process, but one simple phrase says it all. "Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe, the mind of man can achieve." So Conceiving (hearing the word) and believing (having faith) is what regenerates us and makes it possible for us to do that which is necessary to gain what is sought. It is not possible for man to save himself into eternal life, but it is possible to seek salvation by God. But if God were not being Gracious toward mankind, no one could seek salvation it would be sin once and DIE!

See my next post.

 

Iluvlight said,

then asked these questions:

NO! There is no proof anywhere in scripture that election equates to believer. Election is not voluntary while belief is entirely voluntary. However, there is good evidence in Scripture that those whom the Father has given to the Son, John 17:6, are rightly called "elect" because they were given "by appointment" to the Son, and that the seed of Jacob are the Elect of God, God's chosen people.

And,

Because NO SUCH PROOF EXISTS! Election is individual, and collective, but never universal!

It is entirely a matter of one's belief in what scriptures say without regard to whom those scriptures are speaking. Not all scripture speaks to ALL mankind. As we can see in Ephesians 2:8.9, there is much diversity in understanding of what is written in scripture. Much of scripture is targeted to provide a complete picture, and one must know who the speaker is and who the target is to be able to understand it. And NO, scripture is not to be taken literally. If it were, it would be one page long. and it would say:

 

Hello ray.

He talks to His Children Ray. If a person knows they have faith then they know they please God. That's why the scriptures are there, not to talk to the unsaved but for the Father to give comfort to His people.

Wes

Yes Wes but it is a gift and a gift that is irrevocable. This makes it our faith. He, God, cannot take it back from us. It is our faith. Comfort for the Children of God. Never will I leave you He says. Never. We will always please God.

Getting desperate? You have said that Jesus saved nobody by His death. Since you have said this and you say that we are not accountable for saving ourselves who pray tell saves us? Your answer is ourselves because we supply the faith. Yet it is that faith that saves us so we are responsible for not saving ourselves if we don't have that faith. We will be held accountable for our sins if we do not get forgiven them.

Your starter for ten. What is it that saved us? Clue below.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved...
Now everyone, what saves us? Is it Grace or what?

What's the matter with you man? How many times do I have to tell you that true Israelite is the Israelite that has a circumcised heart? Why do you still stagnate in that mire of yours?
Do you still not comprehend that the only people the bible is talking to are the true Israel? The Israel of Israel. We are all Israelites to whom the promise is come.
Your nonsense will confuse no one that is not meant to be confused and you will reap that which you sow. A harvester of destruction.


johnp.

 

Wes

Yes Wes but it is a gift and a gift that is irrevocable. This makes it our faith. He, God, cannot take it back from us. It is our faith. Comfort for the Children of God. Never will I leave you He says. Never. We will always please God.</font>[/QUOTE]So is breath a gift. Life itself is a gift. God does not require that man has breath or even life. God does require the man to POSSESS faith in order for HIM to save the man. FAITH is the only thing God requires of man for man to be saved, being saved is God's free gift to man, everything else in inherent in man or in God. God has no faith to give, and cannot therefore give it to man as a gift!

Getting desperate? You have said that Jesus saved nobody by His death. Since you have said this and you say that we are not accountable for saving ourselves who pray tell saves us? Your answer is ourselves because we supply the faith. Yet it is that faith that saves us so we are responsible for not saving ourselves if we don't have that faith. We will be held accountable for our sins if we do not get forgiven them.</font>[/QUOTE]Then you completely negate the Atonement for sin. Either Atonement pays the penalty for ALL sin in ALL times or it doesn't pay for any sin in any time.

It is not the atonement that saves man! It is God that saves man, and He only saves those who possess faith in HIM! We could have 10 Million atonements, and not one of them would save a single man! So get it out of your head that atonement saves! It does not! Atonement does however make it possible for believers to have everlasting life, because their sins do not condemn them to death because the penalty has already been paid. NO, Unbelievers do not get eternal life, but not because their sins are not atoned, but because they don't believe in the one who saves!

Man's deeds will be judged, and deeds include both good works and sins. However, Man is not held accountable with his life for the deeds he did, because the penalty of death is no longer in force for ANY man whether or not the man believes in Jesus.

There is the WHO and the WHAT that saves us while HE is in his grace. He gave us his Holy Word, which if heard, beings faith to us, which sanctifies those of us who have FAITH as a Possession. God alone saves every man who has faith in HIM! NTHERS get saved!

JohnP, you can ignore the truth 'til the desert is forested with tall trees, but you cannot convince anyone that you know the truth so long as you keep posting drivel like this.

 

Wes.

Not for all. For some it is a curse.

Not for all. For some it is a curse.

Snatching for straws? It's God that gives breath as He gives everything for life.

You have Him wrong. The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so, Rom 8:7. He made us like this. We serve His purpose not our own. If He made you to snap crackle and pop that is what you will do in the lake.

Did He change His mind? He told the Israelites that they had to obey the law.

If God has assigned you to snap, crackle and pop it is for His glory and nothing to do with you except He has ensured you are guilty. As in the breakfast serial is it free? Or is it really free as in not as the world gives? If it is free then it is free and a gift. If it is by works then it is an obligation. Just believing in Him is a work. Faith is a work and there is nothing you can counter that with. JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." The word of God is stronger than your denial.

May be you would like to rephrase this. That is a dead man.

No you negate it by not understanding atonement. Look it up and try. Atonement make the parties at peace. Friends. It is only given for Israel of which I am apart. It makes peace, not me but the sacrifice makes peace. It was given for me.

Cause you say so? Nobody else says so! You have decided that the sacrifice of atonement means that Jesus paid the debt of every sinner and that no one goes to Hell because of sin. There is a word for that here, you probably have the same word, it rimes with bullocks.
If you intend to stay with your line of argument then drop the atonement. It does you no favours. That Jesus died for sin is good enough. The Atonement has a specific meaning against you.

Bullocks come to mind again. What's the problem? Have you come to this conclusion alone? Be warned.
One is enough for all and everyman that ever lived. The application of the atonement is limited to Israel. Prove me wrong.

It makes it inevitable man! The atonement is reconciliation. It reconciles. It alone make God a friendly chap to know. Without it He will inevitably chuck us into the lake of fire.

PS 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
PS 32:2 Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit.

And what of the others, the ones whose sin the Lord does count against him? Hell and burning rings a bell.

Plain invention. Man will stand before the judgement seat of Christ to be judged for their deeds. Those people that do not pass the test of righteousness will be chucked into Hell to suffer forever and ever, without relief.
Stop the lies. You are sending people to Hell with your belief.

I convince? Drivel? May be it is drivel I do not know until I get responses to my drivel. I take your vote as a zero then.
I don't blame you for your drivel. I believe that God is the first cause!
Why should I ignore the truth anyway? I was quite happy as a sinner. I'm more than content to return to it if anyone can find a loophole in the scriptures, you I am afraid are far from it.

johnp.

 

[qoute]Plain invention. Man will stand before the judgement seat of Christ to be judged for their deeds. Those people that do not pass the test of righteousness will be chucked into Hell to suffer forever and ever, without relief.
Stop the lies. You are sending people to Hell with your belief.[/quote]Scripture please?

 

Wes.

Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

JN 8:21 Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
JN 8:23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

JN 8:34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father. "

JN 8:39 "Abraham is our father," they answered.
"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

johnp.

 

You are expressing salvation through works!

Salvation is by FAITH ALONE!

 

Thanks Wes that is very helpful!

John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

Not me man, Jesus; JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

What's the problem with dying in your sins? I thought you said Jesus died for all sin so how can anyone die in theirs if Jesus died in their place?
"If you do not believe," Jesus said, "You will die in your sins."
And if that happens then all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law and that means perish. All have sinned and those who get no chance of hearing the word perish. Rom 2:12.
What for? I know not. They have not refused Christ, never having heard of Him, and they have nothing owing to God due to Jesus dying for them!

johnp.

 

What you are saying is that if you do good works you are NOT cast into the lake of fire, but if you do evil works (sins) you are.

Jesus clearly states the criteria for salvation is FAITH! BELIEF that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

Salvation cannot be either/or, faith/or works. And it cannot be Faith PLUS works!

Salvation is FAITH ALONE!

 

But you say that faith is not a work but Jesus says different does He not?

JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Does Satan not believe that?

johnp.

 

The definition of faith is found in Hebrews 11:1. Faith always has to have a starting point, though it does have a continuous action which is our sanctification.

The lost are commanded to turn to the Lord and not to wait for that bolt of electing power to ‘cherry pick’ you out of the vast millions of sinners. What saith the Prophet Isaiah? ‘Seek ye the Lord while He may be found, call ye on Him while He is near.’ Free will is most obvious here and the ability of the lost to see some spiritual truth is found in the next verse which is Isaiah 55:7. Calvinism’s ‘dead corpse theory’ is proven errant here through God’s own messenger who was anointed and commissioned as a prophet while in the Temple. [6:1-13] Isaiah had a vision of the holiness of the Lord.

Both the ‘woman with the issue of blood’ and the two blind men were not accessed in a Divine lottery, but the Lord speaks of their faith. To the woman He said, ‘Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith has made thee whole.’ And to the blind our Lord said, ‘According to your faith be it unto you.’ If they did not have faith they would not have come into His Presence. They probably heard of Jesus other miracles and thought, if He can do a miracle for them, maybe it will happen with me also.

I believed in the promises of God that He would save and He did in my life. How about in your life?