Calvinist Evangelism...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Window Wax, Dec 16, 2004.

  1. Window Wax

    Window Wax
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    I'm sure this topic has been addressed here many times before, however, I am knew to the board, and really don't have the time to go searching for it.

    Basically, I want to know from Calvinists, what is the purpose of evangelism, other than the simple fact of obeying the Great Commission. If all our choices are already pre-determined by God, then what use would their be in spreading the Gospel? Do Calvinistic churches actively pursue soul-winning and/or witnessing?

    Thanks for the help!
    Jeremiah
     
  2. whatever

    whatever
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    I'm new too, and I don't know what answers have been given before. Here are mine.

    Mainly, we evangelize because God commands it. Plus, it is clear that God is pleased to use means when giving life to unbelievers. He works through many things, including believers who declare His glory in the gospel, to bring the lost to faith.

    As for your last question, if I get to define "Calvinistic", the answer is yes. There are some who call themselves Calvinists who go too far into fatalism, and who do not witness. That attitude does not square with classic Calvinism.
     
  3. GeneMBridges

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    God has ordained the means of salvation as well as the ends thereof. We do evangelism for the exact same reason the Arminian does it. There is no difference. Arminians do it because, perhaps, a potential soul might be lost. We do it because we believe all God's chosen will be called, but He does not reveal to us who they are and He thus uses the general proclamation of the gospel to reach them and call them effectively to Himself.

    Yes, Calvinistic churches very actively pursue evangelism. Spurgeon was a tremendous evangelist. George Whitefield was a great evangelist. John Broadus and James Boyce taught a strong evangelism. A great many of the great missionaries to China in the 19th century were Calvinists. Many non-Calvinistic Baptist churches use Evangelism Explosion as their evangelism program. Evangelism Explosion was actually written and pioneered by D. James Kennedy and the staff of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Coral Gables Florida.

    Yes, some, called hyperCalvinists do not evangelize. That is one of our problems with them. On the other hand, there are just as many Arminians that do not evangelize.
     
  4. padredurand

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    If Winston-Salem wasn't so far away, I'd buy you a tall glass of Welch's grape juice. Bless you, GeneMBridges!

    You know what you call an Arminian who doesn't evangelize? The head of the Social Committee who thought having a coffee hour after service was evangelism.
     
  5. Southern

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    Jeremiah,

    Welcome to the board bro!

    We evangelize because God has not only ordained the "ends" (glorification) but also the means (preaching of the gospel). How shall they hear without a preacher? They wont!

    Take a look at the following passages, notice in each one that though these people were predestined they has to "come" and "believe" the gospel message (John 6:37;Acts 13:48;2 Thes. 2:13;Rom. 8:29ff.).

    Specifically look at Rom. 8:29 and following:
    All those predestined are also "called".

    I could cite many more scripture if you would like, but notice that in each one of these, the one who is elected "comes", "believes", "called", etc. This only happens in conjuction with the preaching of the word, and Jesus told us to preach the Gospel to every creature because we do not know who the elect are and we can trust that all those the Father has given to the Son "will" come to the Son (John 6:37).

    In Christ

    P.S. Here is a new book that discusses the major role of Calvinism in the history of the worlds revivals! Who can forget names such as George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, William Carey, Judson, Spurgeon, Luther, Calvin, etc. etc.:


    CALVINISM IN HISTORY: A Political, Moral & Evangelizing Force
    by Nathaniel S. McFetridge

    This little gem is filled with myriads of powerful testimonies concerning the Political, Moral and Evangelizing Force of the Doctrines of Grace. Written in 1882 by a Presbyterian Pastor trained at the feet of A.A. Hodge, it was published and re-published by The Presbyterian Board of Publication. There is a powerful chapter highlighting the vital role of Calvinism in the founding and life of the United States of America.

    One customer ordered 100 copies as soon as he heard that this would be available again, and he assured us that friends of his would be doing the same.

    "I do not know of any other book that sets forth so effectively and yet in such a brief form the real nature of Calvinism and the effect that it has had in history."
    - Loraine Boettner

    "This is a readable and happy account of Calvinism in history." - Rousas Rushdoony

    It is a privilege for Solid Ground to bring this book back into print with the sincere desire that it will travel throughout the world and bear witness to the truth of the great doctrines of Augustine and Calvin, doctrines rooted and grounded in Holy Scripture.
     
  6. Bro. James

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    John Calvin and James Arminius--

    Lived in the 16th century--they came out of Rome.

    What were the doctrines of grace, election and predestination called before the so-called reformation? See the Pauline letters.

    Evangelism--going forth with the "Good News" message is the only reason the Lord leaves us on this globe--He is still gathering the Lost Sheep. The doctrines of grace have been an integral part of The Gospel since The Great Commission was given to The New Testament Assembly.

    We are in a ditch--again. Why do we follow men?

    What will we do for God today?

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  7. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Bro. James.

    Whatever He has a mind for us to do brother.

    johnp.
     
  8. Wes Outwest

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    Calvinism says all God's elect will be saved. If that is a sure thing there is no need to evangelize.

    Do Calvinists show their doubts by evangelizing? If you have assurance, and all you Calvinist have been posting your proof texts of the assurance you have, then there is NO reason to evangelize because ALL Elect will be saved.

    Remember Man acts out what man believes! So on the one hand you "know" that the elect are saved, while on the other hand you are not sure of that because you evangelize, "BELIEVING" that we are saved through faith! Are you implying that the NON-ELECT cannot have faith? What if some do have faith? Are they saved like the elect?

    What if, in one weeks time, ALL NON-ELECT come to faith in God, Will God save them ALL?
     
  9. Pastor Larry

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    YOu continue with this straw man. It is completely untrue. FAr from it, the election of God is the only reason why evangelism is necessary. If God did not elect individuals to salvation, there would be no purpose for evangelism. It would be like shouting at the moon. The moon won't respond no matter how loud you shout.

    Calvinists show their faith by evangelizing. They show their belief that is founded on God's gracious election.

    What if the moon turned to prime rib, would geese drive cars?

    The non-elect will not come to faith in God. They will continue in their own way, doing exactly what they will to do. They don't want God and will reject the message. God will not save any one like that.
     
  10. Wes Outwest

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    FALSE, GOD SAVES ALL WHO BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH IN HIS SON. "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM...BOTH JEW AND GENTILE, (ELECT AND NON ELECT RESPECTIVELY)!"
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    Why do you call what I said false and then say the same thing? God will save all who will come to him, both elect and non-elect. But guess what ... the non-elect will not come. They will not believe. Therefore, God will not save them.

    Your continued misunderstanding of the issues clouds the conversation. Election is not separated from faith, as you would pretend. They go hand in hand.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    WE GENTILES ARE THE NON-ELECT, LARRY!

    He came unto his own, His elect, but his elect received him not! So, he through his apostle PETER, opened up Salvation to the NON-ELECT, the Gentile world, or as the ELECT referred to us, "the dogs".

    The Gentile world has accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the past 2000 years, though not all, by any means. However for 2000 years Christianity has been a mainstay in the gentile world! This season that is upon us is the result of Jesus extending his salvation to the NON-ELECT.
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    No, we Gentiles are not the "non-elect." Some Gentiles are elect. The evidence that some Gentiles are among the elect is so overwhelming in the NT that is cannot be seriously questioned. The epistles are often written to "the elect" in locales where Gentiles would have made up the majority of the population. Paul, the missionary to the Gentiles, said he endured all things for the sake of the elect so that they may obtain salvation and with it eternal glory. In other words, he believed there were "elect" among the Gentiles to whom he was ministering. Furthermore, he believed that he must preach so that the already elect would obtain salvation, and the eternal glory that comes with it.

    You still apparently make the mistake of believing that salvaiton was opened to the Gentiles only after Peter's vision. That is flatly false and has already been disproven.

    Wes, you are making it difficult to take you seriously when you say things like this.
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    The New Testament "ELECT" that you cite are those who through FAITH, have ACCEPTED JESUS! They have become "THE ELECT" through their FAITH in Jesus, the SON OF GOD! It is those "ELECT" that PAUL writes his letters to. They were not elect until Paul or some other disciple of Jesus gave them God's word and they believed unto FAITH in GOD, and it is that FAITH in GOD that makes them "THE ELECT".

    There were churches established POST JESUS, by PAUL and others, in Ephesus, Galatia, Phillipi, Corinth, Rome, Colossus, and Thessalonica because of their evangelistic effort. The people in those churches became the New Testament "ELECT" through their FAITH, gained through the efforts of the Apostles. Those churches in 'gentile land' did not exist before Jesus! So, John's, "he came unto his own and his own received him not" cannot not mean the Gentile "Elect". IT must mean God's chosen (elected) people.

    The New testament "Elect" cited in Paul's letters to the churches, cannot mean some nebulous unknown people who at some point God will call to be believers. It must mean that Paul is using the term in reference to the true believers, the FAITHFUL, IN THOSE CHURCHES!
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    Great point ... Let's look at it Scripturally. Fortunately, it won't take long.

    Here, we see Paul clearly teaching that not all the elect were saved at that point in time. Therefore, it is possible to be elect and not yet be saved.

    Notice that Paul here teaches that election was to salvation and prior to belief. They were elected to salvation which comes through belief.

    Clearly, two passages show you to be wrong. Make no mistake about it ... There are others. I will just give these two because they are crystal clear.

    Will you please provide any scriptural evidence that election is based on faith? Ray Berrian has often made this claim, but everytime I ask for scriptural proof he shuts up and disappears. I know why he does ... He has none. Perhaps you do.

    But alaz, your assertion falls harmlessly since I have already shown Paul talking about the elect who were not yet saved, and therefore not yet known. In some cases, Paul uses the term in the sense of true believers. Why are they true believers? Obviously because they were elect. There is no other way to account for their belief.

    This is simple stuff, Wes. The Scriptures make it plain. It is you who have made it hard.
     
  16. Miguel Angel Chaparro

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    In the one hand is the Grace (Jesus) of God that begins and ends in His good pleasure to a sinful man to be saved, and the other is the action or the will of a sinful man cleansing himself from his sinful nature and obtaining the kingdom of God by the power of the flesh!

    One of this above most be compare with;

    1- The righteousness of God
    2- The penalty of payment at the Cross
    3- How does the soul get regenerate?

    If man can accomplish this 3 and then he is able but if he can’t why not leave it to the Potter!
     
  17. Wes Outwest

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    No one, but no one is saying what you said in this quote!
     
  18. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg
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    While I personally don't prefer to be associated with the name of the man who put many of our Baptist forefathers to death during the time in which he controlled Geneva, Switzerland, with an intolerant, theocratic hand during the mid 1500's, that's the name by which those who believe that God took the initiative in our salvation have unfortunately been come to be designated.

    The idea that there ARE some elect out there guarantees that ultimately our evanglistic efforts WILL succeed!

    Who they may be and where they may be located is not OUR business to determine. Our business is to obey what God's Word clearly tells us to do and then leave the results up to Him!

    I don't know who it was who wrote this, but I love what it says:

    'Tis not that I did choose Thee
    For, Lord, that cannot be.
    This heart would still refuse Thee
    Hadst Thou not chosen me.

    Thou from the sin that stained me
    Hast cleansed and set me free.
    Of old Thou hast ordained me
    That I should live for Thee.

    My heart owns none before Thee.
    For Thy rich grace I thirst.
    This knowing, if I love Thee,
    Thou must have loved me first!
     
  19. johnp.

    johnp.
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    ktn4eg. I hear that libel is still considered bad taste.
    Libel. That is all that is. Now you must bring evidence to support your accusation or make amends.
    To my knowledge Calvin was a minister in the Church not king of the country. His theocratic hand held no power. He was not a civil magistrate. He had no power over life or death.
    To my knowledge Calvinism does not teach intolerance but the opposite.

    What do you say?

    johnp.
     
  20. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg
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    Christian, John T. "A History of the Baptists," p.198 [citing Froude's "History of England," V:99], Baptist Sunday School Committee of the ABA,(Texarkana, AR-TX: 1922).

    Vedder, Henry C. "A Short History of the Baptists," p. 138. Judson Press (Valley Forge, PA: 1907).

    for starters.

    One should keep in mind that the contents of any book of any kind of history will reflect the biases of its author(s) and the specific intentions they may have had. Ones that were written by those who come from a typical Protestant background will probably overlook certain aspects of any famous person or attribute a variety of reasons why that person may have done (or not done) what they did/didn't.

    It happened as far back as written annals exist and continues today and will continue on as long as people write whatever it is that they write.

    A history of the US by a Soviet author who lived under Stalin's regime will probably be a little different than one written by a conservative American author. The motives of GW Bush won't appear to be exactly the same by an author who was/is an avid Kerry supporter and vice versa. The examples could be multiplied, but I believe you can see the point I've made.

    The word Baptist (or Anabaptist, as many were called in the days of Calvin) has been loosely applied to many things and individuals. I was not particularly fond of many of the things that the three Baptist US presidents we've had. On the other hand, I admired one president who was a divorcee and ran around with a lot of Hollywood personalities (but not for those reasons).

    "Libel"? I think not, but you are entitled to your opinion. Perhaps you would care to list the sources upon which you base your opinions of Calvin? Hopefully they were all devout Baptist authors (since this IS a BAPTIST Board, you know).
     

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