Calvinist Hats On

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benjamin, Jul 10, 2011.

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  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin
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    Properly defining one’s position is important.

    Calvinist hat on: I, a Calvinist who proclaims God predestines that His elect will unconditionally choose salvation as I believe is evidenced through Divine fore-knowledge and I will support by my view of Divine sovereignty believe God allowed/allows evil to happen in the world that He (Who is Only Good) could use it for His purpose(s) and does so for the good to prevail. God controls all things, but… (evil CAN NOT be presumed to be attributed to originate from God, period! You must reasonably defend this position and therefore you CAN NOT use words such as God “decreed, ordained, etc…Evil”)

    Please give an example to the Calvinist (real orthodox Calvinist views are also welcome), of how you (A Calvinist) can/would support a doctrine of predestination “without” the necessity of attributing evil to God or having your logic appearing to do so in any way. A tough challenge I know, but the necessity for a Calvinist to avoid the heretical application of attributing evil to God exists and there are ways to argue for predestination that one who would desire to hold to the orthodox position of evil not being from God would be upheld at all costs, because it is THAT important. Keep in mind the opposing arguments you might face and make it your goal that in no way would you want your view miss-took that evil comes out of a God Whose attributes include that of “only” having a Nature of Good and His being clearly *without moral evil in His Nature for the possibility of evil to come out of Him.

    Deu 32:4
    (4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and *without iniquity, just and right is he.

    1) Calvinist, feel free to put on your non-Calvinist hat and make the opposing arguments.
    2) If you do not believe that God’s Nature is Only Good…well, I believe this is obviously a problem that should be dealt with.
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    Here is an article on it;
    http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf

    1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
    ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
    2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
    ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

    3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
    ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

    4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
    ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
     
    #2 Iconoclast, Jul 10, 2011
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  3. Benjamin

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    Evil comes to pass, did God decree evil?


    Okay, prove/explain how, “If God decreed evil, how is He not the author of it?


    again prove/explain where does the Bible speaks of “second causes” and how is “liberty” (“the will of the creature”/creaturely volition/the conscious ability to choose) not taken away within these “second causes”?

    I did not ask for you to re-state your…err…the manmade dogm…err…position you parrot. I asked you to defend/rationalize it. Try using your own words supported by scripture to explain how a God of Truth, a God without moral evil, “decrees all things” (evil) “whatsoever comes to pass” (evil) yet is not the author of it (evil)?


    Ahh, sounds like double talk to me.* Decreed all things, yet hath not decreed anything? All things whatsoever comes to pass, but not that which would come to pass?

    Sounds like the 1689 LBC philosophy you bow to has the same problem you do trying to explain how something can be both true and not true. Are you just going to repeat/parrot the confession and avoid explaining with a measure of truth/logic how *this works?

    Don't repeat your dogma, explain it...

    See the question marks?





     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

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    1st you define for me your understanding of predestination
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    Benjamin,
    I am not trying to be unkind here....but it seems like you are misreading the quote...you call it double talk,but it is straight forward;

    yet hath he not decreed anything...because he foresaw it as future

    Benjamin.....did you read the pdf file it is a 13 page article that might be helpful for you.
     
  6. psalms109:31

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    Foreknew

    This is way I see it. God foreknew everything that man would do. So He used people's own evil desire into His plan for the good of those who love Him.

    He may of stopped an evil desire from happening to help those who love Him or allowed it to bring them to Himself.

    It was no way His desire for them to do evil, but He does use their own evil desire for His purpose.
     
    #6 psalms109:31, Jul 10, 2011
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  7. Benjamin

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    1) God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;
    2) yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

    Again, evil exists, evil comes to pass; “saying” God is not the author of evil while claiming he has determined all things whatsoever will come to pass is different from “proving” it if it includes evil, get it???


    I am very familiar with the P.O.E. Here is the crux of "your" article trying to support the Calvinist position:

    We must be content to leave the question unresolved. The Calvinist falls into error when he ascribes the reason why some people are not saved to the decretive will of God; in effect, he is trying to explain evil. It is wiser to locate the reason why some people are not saved in the sheer mystery of evil.

    Evil exists, mystery or not, it can not (unless one holds to a heretical position) be attributed to God. Your article wishes to leave this question unresolved, yet hold to the determinist doctrine. So what else is new? God could not decree evil. Would you like to declare otherwise for us here? Or would like to to explain how both could be true?
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    Benjamin,
    I am somewhat simple in my understanding.It is not complicated to me at all. I do not struggle with this question.

    1] God is light,and In Him is no darkness at all.

    2] God has created everything that exists, including angelic beings and man.

    3] man and angelic beings, not being confirmed in holiness are able to do sinful, evil rebellious acts.

    4] Nothing exists outside of the control of God...there is not one random molecule outside of His control.[if anything existed outside of God or His control he would not be God.]

    5] God is righteous and good. He is all wise.

    6] all evil will be punished by God. He is fully aware of the evil that takes place in this fallen and sinful world as well as among principalites and powers.

    Benjamin, I do not get into philosphical speculation, I think there is a place for that[a small place].... I know this....for God to put up with and save me from my sin and wickedness is a great mercy...that he gives life eternal as an inheritance is beyond what any of us deserve.
    I never will think or ascribe any evil motive to a sinless and Holy God who has purposed to save me and a multitude of sinners in His Son.

    I do not go beyond what is written. When God allowed satan to come against Job...Job did not ascribe evil to God...neither will I.


    Evil exists in the universe of an omnipotent, benevolent God, who is completely sovereign over it and uses it for his own glory and the highest good—the argument of the consistent Calvinist.
    GOD IS SOVEREIGN OVER EVIL
    The last view—that God is absolutely sovereign over both natural and moral evil,11 and uses evil for his own glory and the highest good—is the only view that can be consistently aligned to the teaching of Scripture. Every other view, deriving from sinful [incapacitated by the noetic effects of sin and willful rebellion against God and his truth] humanistic reasoning, and so calling God and his actions into question, seeks to point out an incoherence in the Christian system. These views either deny God and evil, or limit God and seek to bring him down to the finite level and destroy his moral self–consistency—and thus any sufficient or consistent basis for morality.12
    The truth of the sovereignty of God over evil may be clarified by the following considerations and implications:
    • The existence of evil in a universe created and governed by a benevolent God is not incoherent if God has a morally sufficient reason for this evil to exist. This “problem” is more psychological than logical or philosophical.13 Man would rather call God and his actions into question than submit himself in complete trust (Rom. 9:11–24), even to a God who is benevolent in the context of his righteousness.
    10 Some of this group hold that God is either working in a utilitarian fashion as best he can, or that he merely foresaw evil and its results, but was not able to prevent them; or that there are some situations brought about by morally free agents that even God did not foresee. While the latter two are somewhat extreme, the idea that God merely foresaw or foreknew evil would not remove culpability from God. If God foresaw what would happen and then laid his plans accordingly, then he could have prevented sins, but evidently chose not to do so. Thus, God would be ultimately responsible for sin by allowing it, yet not controlling it for the highest good and his glory. Further, if God merely foresaw evil as a certainty—and it must have been certain for God to foresee it as such in the biblical sense—then God himself could not have prevented sin. Sin would have existed and been determined by a force outside God. He would thus finitely exist within a “universe” over which he exercised no ultimate control, a “universe” controlled in the final sense by an atheistic determinism!
    11 Natural evil is evil that occurs in the realm of nature (calamities such as floods, famine, disease, suffering, earthquakes and pestilence). Moral evil is evil or sin that occurs because of the wickedness of man against man (e.g., wars, rapes, torture, murders, hatred, deceit, theft, destruction, etc.).
    12 This is often the approach by the secular college or university professor in his challenge to students who are professing Christians, but doctrinally unsound and inconsistent in their faith. He seeks to destroy both their faith and their basis for morality.
    13 This issue is fully dealt with by Greg Bahnsen in Always Ready. Texarkana: Covenant Media Foundation,
     
    #8 Iconoclast, Jul 10, 2011
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  9. preacher4truth

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    ...and in Job saying "Shall we not receive both good and evil at the hand of the LORD" he did NOT sin with his lips.

    - Peace
     
  10. psalms109:31

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    Chaos

    I hope this isn't a random thought, but this O.P. made me think of this.

    I am not saying the Chaos theory represent God, but want to use it to make a point.

    There is a thing that is called the Chaos theory where all these random acts come to a climax and works to bring a result. It all looks random, but it all ends up to bring the end result that was planned.

    We don't see the big picture and we see bad things happening to good people, people who have a love for God. Why would God do this and that, during trials it is so hard to trust God and see that it is all working out for the good of those who love Him.

    We do not see the whole picture so trust in Him no matter what, at the end you will see an awesome result and you will glorify Him and praise Him.
     
    #10 psalms109:31, Jul 10, 2011
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  11. Benjamin

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    Calvnism/Determinism involves philosophical speculation. Yet you claim to be simple minded and at the same time say it is not complicated to you at all; apparently you accept Calvinist philosophy without thinking about it.



    I'm glad for this statement, although, the doctrine you follow without question (Determinism) logically abscribes evil to Him and I would think that is a question you would like to have an answer for.
     
  12. quantumfaith

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    1. Check
    2. Check
    3. Check
    4. Check
    5. Check
    6. Check


    OH my, I better stop participating on BB I might become mistaken for a......:)
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    Benjamin,
    For many of us who are now called calvinists...we saw in scripture the teaching of election and predestination first as truth without even thinking out the implications fully.
    That comes in time. Benjamin while it is good to investigate and think things out, try not to over think. What i mean is you seem to be searching for one magic bullet. The answer to this might be more along the line of some positive verses about some of the teaching

    What is predestination
    What is reprobation
    What is biblical foreknowledge.

    The fact that God has ordained the sin and evil would exist,and yet without Him causing the evil...in other words..it was not like pharoah wanted to bless the Israelites...and God said no pharoah..I will force you to perform evil.

    or Judas...Jesus did not say go and do what I am forcing you to do.

    God restrained Abimelech from commiting sexual sin....but abimelech was the one who was planning the sin.

    notice in this account from Dan 3 that these three were confident in God's providence in their life, in vs 17,and 18...they were willing to trust God unto death,and yet God allowed the evil men to come against them first before he intervened.
    The doctrine I hold has no philosophy to it. It is simple. God is in complete control of all things whatsoever comes to pass.
    Living in a fallen world there is all manner of evil,sin,and death, as a result of the fall and the curse.
    Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, [ the fact that he is described as the Lamb slain before the world was..indicates that God had already ordained for sin and evil to be in the world after the fall]
    and ordained to conquer sin, satan, and death on behalf of the multitude of covenant Children he came to save.
    Gal4:4 tells us ...
    Nothing random..the cross was not random

    But the resurrection and ascension were not random either.

    Benjamin..... I believe it all..if it is written..I believe it. I think all christians believe it. Even if there are parts that each one of us are not clear on.

    As we live in luxury here in America, millions are dying in horrid conditions worldwide. Both are happening at the same time.
    There are reasons for both situations.
    you said;
     
  14. Benjamin

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    You might want to think about that statement. ;)



    [​IMG]
     
    #14 Benjamin, Jul 10, 2011
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  15. Iconoclast

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    What kind of philosophy do you see in it?

    When i say no philosophy..... that does not mean I do not think we are not to come to a scripturally based world view. I think we must have biblical presuppositions...
    Do you mean something else? If you give me some examples I will discuss them with you.

    Quantum, careful lol
    lol,
     
  16. Benjamin

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    To say God ordained sin and evil is heresy plain and simple, it doesn't matter that you try to deny what you have just said in the next breath. You only attempt to cover a lie with another lie is all.

    No doubt: Philosophy - 1. the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.
     
  17. preacher4truth

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    Great apologetic and representation of truth here, and in all you've stated in this thread. Let no man say you are giving your "philosophy" as if that is a bad thing, especially when your "love of wisdom" (philosophy) is sound Biblical doctrine. Your apologia is Biblical and full of Grace and God bless you. Also in the trial of your faith, in this you are standing against those who oppose you in truth and in a Christian and Biblical manner.
     
    #17 preacher4truth, Jul 11, 2011
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  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I am very concerned that there is a growing tendency, among some of our people who hold to DoG, to reduce the Bible doctrine of predestination to the pagan doctrine of fatalism. This unmoral tendency to fatalism and pantheism IE... to make God, and not man, the real author or cause of sin, and thus to destroy the distinction between right and wrong - appears in such unguarded and unscriptural expressions as "the absolute predestination of all things" so this is just a warning to my brethren. Go back if you must & review just what predestination is:

    Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."


    Note : Predestination is always about "people" not "events". Now this is important, God did NOT predestinate all things that transpire but He predestinated all whom He foreknew. This is scriptural.
     
  19. preacher4truth

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    Predestine: to limit in advance, to predetermine

    We have three forms of this in the Greek that have similar meanings. Horidzo; to mark out before hand, to decree, to determine as in Acts 2:23. We have "pro" which is somehwat a simpler meaning, which is generally "before" in the NT. Then we have "proorizo" which again is "predestine; to limit in advance, to predetermine."

    God has both predetermined both events and people.

    When He predestinated (to predetermine) His Son to the Cross, this was an event "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24. "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." Acts 2:23

    The Second Coming is a predetermined and planned event also.

    These are some of the reasons as to why I believe God has also predetermined events. Such as Judas betrayal of Christ, Psalm 41. He has also predetermined events by prophesying about them.

    He has also predestined His elect, or people; "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Romans 8:29-30.

    I don't see any of this as fatalisitic, just the Word of God.

    - Peace
     
    #19 preacher4truth, Jul 11, 2011
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  20. psalms109:31

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    Foreknowledge

    To harden a man's heart is to give them over to their own evil desire and give them no pleasure in it.

    It is a shame when we harden our own hearts.

    Hebrews 3:
    Warning Against Unbelief
    7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    8 do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion,
    during the time of testing in the wilderness,
    9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
    though for forty years they saw what I did.
    10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
    I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
    and they have not known my ways.’
    11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
    ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”[Psalm 95:7-11]

    12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion.”[Psalm 95:7,8]

    16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

    Jude 1:
    5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
     
    #20 psalms109:31, Jul 11, 2011
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