Calvinist Hats On

PFT,

Please be clear, I do not see Benjamin "arguing" for the "goodness" of man. I see him attempting to "crack the kernel" of how some see God as "decreeing" and "ordaining" ALL things and how one then says that "evil" is not also explicityly "caused" by God. In my mind, if one holds that God "decrees and ordains" all things, the only logical way sin comes to fruition is by the "free" choice of created beings endowed with the power and authority to do so.

I don't ever see Benjamin man is "good" and thus by implication "deserving" of God's grace and salvation. Rather grace is simply that grace (mercy, hesed).

Just one of those "pesky free willers".

 

I couldn't be more clear. He's defended such on other threads, mans ability, that we can find God, others chiming in supporting the goodness of man, fighting against there are "none" good, and there are "none" that seek God. This is contrary to Biblical truth. We are all (were all) in the same boat.

Also, nowhere did I say he then claims he deserves God's grace by earning. Let's stick to what I've actually said please.

My point is that when this is wrong, other wrongs follow, such as on this thread. The hatred for Romans 3 is apparent. So is their stance for mans goodness and ability to seek God. They completely reject this and my above post addresses this and shows how others have held this position also; Pharisees, Pelagius, and now others. It's just a new-era of the same thing, it's just in new packaging.

I've been clear on all of this, and would request we stay on track and not add to what I've stated.

I also find it quite interesting they fight against the "none" good part, saying it isn't so, then fight against the word "all" saying it does always mean all. Hmmm.

- Peace

 

Im about as Conservative as they get......here is an analogy from my prospective......your comment is like saying your Barney Frank & you want to be POTUS. Now, do I want to even listen to you?:smilewinkgrin:

 

I think that this discussion is more about Free Will as apposed to Gods decrees & doctrines. I dont personally believe any of my brothers in Christ believe God has authorship in Sin....its just how we look at it.

I would like to believe the illusion of Free Will but I have many questions about it. What is free will? Here is the definition I have found: “God does not assert any power or influence over the will of human beings.” So my Free Will Brethren your telling me its all about 'doing whatever you like because God isn't going to do anything about it'?

Oh my Gosh, just think of the implications if this is true. Your eternal destiny rests in your hands. You make the decision on whether you will go to heaven or hell. Believe and be saved…do not believe and be damned. You get it? If you do not accept Christ as your personal savior, you will go to hell. You have free will and God will not intervene in any decision you make. Yes, He wants you to be saved but he is leaving it all up to you. Why? Because you have free will, my friend! YOU make the call!!

Wow, thats scary but you fellows glory in it. I repeat "SCARY"!

 

If you can, read the Jonathan Edwards book "On the Freedom of the Will." Amazon.com has this book fairly cheap. Also, it is absolutely free if you have e-sword Bible program, which is free itself. Edwards works are public domain, and you can download his books into e-sword at no cost. You can also find his works to read online.

Also watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eHjQHMWp1M

 

PFT, in all honesty and humility, this is the kind of rhetoric that fans flames, no one has ever expressed hatred at Romans 3. Rather, you interpret someone else's interpretation as incorrect ant then identify it as "hatred" of the scriptures. That is just not intellectually fair and just. Disagree, by all means YES, but don't call someone else's disagreement with your position "hatred of scripture".

 

Yea, I liked the last point he made in that Utube (2 Peter 1) about God getting incredibly lucky. That was very good. Wonder how the Free Will Brothers would address that...LOL

 

Seriously? :laugh: Who's doctrine feeds on luck in your arbitrary selection theology? :laugh:

 

I must totally disagree with you here.

It is intellectually fair. Totally.

The denial of mans state, that "none" are good and seeking is a universal indictment upon all of mankind.

I have offered an apology to this error. It is both Pharisaical and Pelagian to state man is "good" that "none" doesn't apply to such, and to defend mans lost state over and above Scripture as something else, which is contrary to the Biblical revelation. The Biblical evidence is clear.

I will tell you what type of rhetoric fans flames; it's when one says I am saying that those I rebut are earning salvation as you've said.

I've never made this statement, and to make it as I have is unfair and intellectually incorrect, and there is no basis for such an erroneous misrepresentation of myself. I also say this in grace. But it is plain wrong to lay that to my charge.

 

Here again is my defense of the lost state of man. Nothing I say herein ascribes to anyone earning salvation:

 

Believe that the Bible teaches that the Lord allowed/permitted BOTH falls of Satan and Adam, that He direct caused His Plan /decree to how He would send to earth Son jewsus/Messiah, and that He would bring to fruitition His plant o redeem back from Sin and Death both Creation itself and the Saved Humans!

God indirectly control of Falls, Direct control over plans to save and redeem!

 

MANY here who hold to Arm theology seem to have a difficult time understanding what Depravity and spiritual deadness means and does not mean from the Biblical perspective!

 

Rather....who's is dependent on man becoming his own authority and point of reference in your anthropocentric perspective? :laugh:

 

Thats a real Epiphany statement brother

Actually its isnt limited to Arminians:thumbsup:

 

God allowed Evil Sin and death, He ALONE really knows reason why...

He did though Know it was to come, and DID predestinaed foreordain HOW He would "deal witht he problem" by sending forth messiah Jesus Christ, whose death would allow the "final solution: tot he problems of evil sin death suffering etc!

The final result will br MUCH greater than the original fall!

 

I agree but would point out that free will addresses the, for lack of a better word, the culpability of God, so, it is also about the "decrees & doctrines".

I am contemplating how you meant to use the word 'power'. I take it you mean in the manner of 'influence' since 'asserting power' seems to very heavy with the idea of causation which would completely render your question of man's free will impossible.

Also, the manner in which you have framed your question seems to make it sound as though we believe that God has never, nor will ever, be the cause of a human's will, or influence that will. I don't understand why you would accept this characature. It is inacurate. I have not read anyone make that claim.

The good thing is that it should be easy for you to recognize the paper tiger you have found. The idea of us conversing on this board indicates that we believe that we can inform and thereby influence another person's will. In fact, if we as Christians have information that might influence unbelievers then we are morally obligated to present such and encouraged to influence them to believe. It is possible that I change my views and decide to do that which I otherwise would not have done. How much more would God be able to inform and inflence man? Yet you propose that we believe God does not nor has ever influenced any man as such?

May I propose a new premise instead of the one you found? Free will is the ability to choose to respond to Him in a self denying way. It is God who informs us (the good news), who draws us (Christ being lifted up), who convicts us of our sin, in faith we deny our selves and turn to Christ.

Your reference here to 'doing whatever you like' doesn't reflect what we believe either. I don't think anyone here on the BB believes that man can cause a certain reality to exist entirely of our own will. If so, then you would be able to rightly accuse them of believing that they could will their keyboard into a block of gold. Of course, we don't have that ability and I think you would agree that that is not what we are claiming (yet your post allows for that). Nor do we believe that man can will himself to a distant extraterrestrial location of blissful existence in the same manner.

It seems that you are :BangHead: bumping up against a logical problem being something like this: How can God create a being with any bit of real free will and still be completely sovereign. How can God hold a created being accountable for something he was not created as able to do.

Can it be the case that God created beings which can choose to deny themselves (at least in one solitary decision) and still maintain His sovereignty? Can it be the case that God can create beings for which God determines and causes everything and still maintain His sovereignty? I think both can be answered in the affirmative. Can God then hold accountable these beings with the consequences being everlasting torment and still maintain His character? In the former scenario, yes. In the latter scenario, I'm not so confident.

Either belief has its problems. I am aware of my belief's problems. I think you would agree that because a belief has logical problems it should not follow that they are therefor disqualified as legitimate candidates for models of reality.

EWF, I would encourage you to read an essay from Dr. Barry Creamer. He is the Professor of Humanities at Criswell College. I have found his podcasts and writings extremely helpful for me to understand the idea of free will. You may also find helpful my story of having to confront the issue of my Pastor being a calvinist. He used my email to start a week long series of shows on KCBI on the subject of Determinism and Freewill. You will also get to learn more about me, which really doesn't mean much other than it seems to help our understanding when we start to emotionally connect to someone's story. Shalom.

 

A hyper Calvinist has the integrity to embrace the logical consequences of Calvinism, God is the author of sin, but a Mainstream Calvinist denies this and simply repeats the logical impossiblity, God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, but is not the author of sin. This issue has been at the core of dozens of threads with Calvinists avoiding the obvious by discussing the character and qualifications of whoever their opponent may be.
It seems hopeless.

 

Brother's ..... this is getting tiring! We can focus & debate on this all day long..... but this is all you really need to know about Predestination & I pray it all falls into place.

Before the beginning of time, God chose a people and has made it so that they will all eventually be LIKE Jesus Christ and WITH Jesus Christ. Thats the biblical defination of Predestination. (Not so bad)

Now, Predestination teaches us that we are totally dependent on the mercy of God. To deny predestination, is to deny the greatest act of pure mercy ever demonstrated. God did not predestine all things that transpire but He predestined all whom He foreknew.

And here is where people become very confused, and some will insist that God predestines everything we do, even the sin that we commit. No, No, No Not so.....again, Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect. Nothing else!

 

...or we understand your faulty understanding and reject it in favor for the biblical perspective :thumbs:

 

No idea since I know of no non-cal, non-arm here who believes such nonsense.