Calvinist preachers, teachers, theologians

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Oct 9, 2006.

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  1. webdog

    webdog
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    On another thread I posted this:

    If you are a calvinist preacher, teacher, missionary, etc, I would like to hear your response. If you believe your theology and soteriology to be accurate and true, do you preach the "truth"?

    If the "non elect" reads the Bible, take 2 Peter 3:9 as an example...is it the truth to them?
     
  2. jne1611

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    1st of all. Why don't you try putting 2Pet 3:9 in its context & see what it says.
    Let's give it a look:
    2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

    Verse 1 Peter wants to stir them up about something they have already heard, but need to keep before their eyes.

    2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

    Verse 2 Peter The truths that they have heard are those which have come from the Lord Jesus Christ through the Apostles.

    2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

    Verse 3 The truth involves the fact that there will be those who come to make fun of the Christian doctrines. In the context, the doctrine of the second coming of Christ for his people.

    2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

    Verse 4 Peter draws the believers attention to the fact that these people will question Christ's promise to come for his people, mainly because it has been so long since the promise was made.


    2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

    Verse 5 Peter shows that these people will come deceiving not only others, but deceiving themselves as well denying the truths that are a fact of history to set the platform for their lies.

    2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

    Verse 6 Peter shows by Biblical history that they are liars.

    2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    Verse 7 Peter shows the church that just as real as the last judgment on the world was, so will the judgment of God in the future be as well. And as these liars deny the judgment of old that is a historical fact, they also deny Christ's coming to their own destruction which though they deny it, they shall not escape.

    2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    Verse 8 Peter reminds the believer that God's timing has no comparison with ours, and though by our time it has been over 2,000 years since Jesus made his promise to return to get his people, it has only been like 2 days to God.

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Verse 9 Peter reminds believers that the Lord is not "slack" - The Greek word means To be slow, to delay.
    In other words in God's time, Christ is not being slow in fulfilling his promise to return, as some men count "slackness" - The Greek word means Slowness, tardiness. But Christ is long suffering - The Greek word means To suffer long, be long-suffering, as opposed to hasty anger or punishment. Long suffering to who & toward who? To "USWARD", This is talking about God's people! That is the elect that Peter has addressed this letter to! Christ is not willing that any should perish. That is his own!
    You may say is there any other Scriptures to support this interpretation of this text? I am glad you asked!
    John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
    Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Notice how he calls these "other sheep", "sheep" even before they are saved! These are God's elect!


    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Verse 10 Peter states the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ will come to get his people and execute judgment as promised.
     
    #2 jne1611, Oct 9, 2006
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  3. whatever

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    As Mr. Whitefield said to Mr. Wesley:
    You, my friend, do not understand Calvinism. All people are called (even commanded) to repent and believe, and therefore there is no reason for us to not preach to all people that if they repent and believe then they will be saved. How they can come to do so is a separate question.
     
    #3 whatever, Oct 9, 2006
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  4. webdog

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    1st, I do know calvinism, and 2nd...this is the biggest load of garbage that there is. Mr. Whitefield has used the cop out excuse that I was talking about. You and Mr. Whitefield know very well that if what you espouse to be true, there is no chance at repentance, so preaching there is a chance is foolishness and not truthful. At least you prove my point that calvinists don't preach what they believe to be "truth" :rolleyes:
     
    #4 webdog, Oct 9, 2006
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  5. webdog

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    So you twist the entire chapter to fit your doctrine besides that verse? Wow.

    Do you preach the "truth" as I asked in the OP?
     
  6. jne1611

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    The Scripture is truth. I sure don't try to fit it to the fancy of people who want to give that which belongs to God's people to the rest of those to whom the promises do not pertain. And how about you show the rest of us how I twisted any Scripture! It was not hard to wrestle that verse out of the hands of those who want to give it to those it does not pertain to.
     
    #6 jne1611, Oct 9, 2006
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  7. webdog

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    You can start another thread...but do you want me to show you how you have twisted it using other calvinists' exegesis, my own, or both?

    Scripture is truth. How you exegete is where there is room for debate. So are you on the record stating that you do preach / teach a TULIP Gospel to the lost?
     
  8. Tom Bryant

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    I'm not a Calvinist, but it seems this argument and accusation throwing is just silly. People interpret Scripture differently. Both of these interpretations are within the realm of Biblical belief.

    If Paige Patterson and Al Mohler can agree to disagree, I bet you guys could too.:BangHead:
     
  9. webdog

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    Well, I don't see this as an argument, but an honest question. It's not an accusation without merit, either. My pastor is reformed, our elders are calvinists...but I never hear them preach or teach what they believe. Why? Regardless of whether someone interprets Scripture differently, you do believe what you hold close to you is truth, no? Then why not teach what you believe to be the truth!

    This would be no different than me teaching TULIP to those I come into contact with, not believing it to be true, accurate, nor apply to who I am teaching / witnessing to.

    The question, btw, was to calvinists and their preaching / teaching / evengelism.
     
  10. jne1611

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    Have you ever asked them why they do not teach their beliefs? And how do you know what they believe if they never tell you?
     
  11. 2BHizown

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    Calvinist preachers preach that God saves sinners! Thats what so many fail to realize! When one becomes aware they are a sinner with no hope and they kneel, pleading for mercy and forgiveness, they are saved, regenerated, given the hope of eternal life!
    Calvinist preachers do not preach that if you walk an aisle, sign a card, pray a prayer you will be saved as some do today. A total change in the heart with it demonstrated by a new life, new interest, new friends, new goals is now apparent because they have a new resident master to serve!
     
  12. jne1611

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    Use your own.
    And for the record. If by TULIP gospel you mean do I present all five points to a sinner? No. And if that is what you mean, I can't see how that would square with even your, or anybodies presentation of the gospel, but I don't want to ascribe that thought to you, so tell me what you mean bu TULIP gospel?
     
  13. webdog

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    I know what they believe, they have discussed it at leaders meetings. It's funny, they are almost "closet calvinists"...like they don't want people to really know. I found out almost a year after attending the church.

    My pastor has stated he preaches the same as Spurgeon, meaning he preaches like everyone is elect, what I stated of calvinistic preachers in the OP.
     
  14. jne1611

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    I don't want to put your pastor down, but if you have Spurgeon's sermons, Myself I have the 63 volumes in 59 bindings & Spurgeon was very open with his congregation about his beliefs of election & the sovereignty of God.
     
  15. 2BHizown

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    If he preaches everyone is 'elect', that is error! That is universalism and heresy!

    Are you really sure that is what he preaches?
     
  16. webdog

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    Do they? Honestly, in the face of what Romans 3:23 says are sinners? This is what I mean about preaching an "arminian Gospel".
    Some do, but none teach that walking an aisle, signing a card or simply praying a prayer saves anyone. I have heard Allistair Begg, a local calvinist preacher preach an arminian Gospel, along with Piper and Macarthur on the radio. You would be hard pressed from hearing their sermons to know they were calvinists.
     
  17. webdog

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    He preaches LIKE they are, since he doesn't know who is or isn't, not that they are.
     
  18. 2BHizown

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    I think you are either misperceiving or totally misunderstanding what they are saying! They are all sound and preach the doctrines of grace!
     
  19. jne1611

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    I pastor a Baptist church & all of the membership of our church have heard me preach what I believe to be the truth. Some call it Calvinism, but I go further in some areas than the Calvinist's I study, so I don't think I am a Calvinist, but anyway. When you say Armenian gospel what do you mean? Whosoever will? or something like that?
     
  20. webdog

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    Yes. Preaching like eveyone in the room has the opportunity to come to Christ, but believing that everyone doesn't.
     
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