"Calvinist teach false doctrine".

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by AAA, Feb 20, 2007.

  1. AAA

    AAA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2007
    Messages:
    524
    Likes Received:
    0
    To: Free willers and other people that disagrees with the doctrine of Calvinism,

    What are the main points and problems that you see with the doctrine of "Calvinism"?

    :godisgood:
     
  2. Blammo

    Blammo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Total Depravity (Total Inability)

    Luke 8:11-15 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

    Unconditional Election

    Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    etc... (looks like conditions to me)

    Limited Atonement

    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    There is more, but, is it really necessary?

    Irresistible Grace

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

    Perseverance of the Saints

    Eternal Security and OSAS? Yes, but NOT according to our works, thus, POS is also false.
     
  3. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good passage...I fail to see the point.

    So...what your saying is..God chooses based on the condition you choose him 1st. Do I understand you right?

    I know you feel world here means all mankind. What does propitiation mean?

    This can never be proved or disproved, so I never debate this point. This verses sure do not disprove it.

    How can you say you believe in OSAS when you also say salvation is based on believing? If one stops believing the condition has changed and being that your salvation is based on this condition, salvation would be gone.
     
  4. Blammo

    Blammo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey James,

    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah....
     
  5. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    It never ends does it? :)


    Its like saying zero 10 times fast without saying rosey
     
  6. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, I admit it. I was actaully dumb enough to try it. :laugh:
    But on a good note, I did it without saying Rosey. But does saying "sheesh" count at the end!

    However in line with the OP.

    We all hold to:
    Depravity
    Election
    Atonement
    Grace
    Perseverence/perservence

    The difference is really in the mechanics of the truths and not actually the truths themselves.
     
    #6 Allan, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2007
  7. Blammo

    Blammo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Luke 8:11-15 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

    Are these four different examples of elect persons, or do we have three types of persons, with 'total inability', hearing, receiving, and believing the word of God?

    Yeah, James, God doesn't know anything about us until He sees it. He doesn't know if we will choose Him or not, so He has to wait til we choose Him before He knows He can choose us. :rolleyes: I guess foreknowledge is hard to understand when you don't have it.

    No, I believe 'whole world' means all mankind. Propitiation deals with the atonement, and this verse shows that it is sufficient for the whole world.

    Proverbs 1:23-31 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.


    Salvation is not contingent on believing??? You and I may disagree on how or why the belief comes about, but, I was certain we both agreed belief must be present to be saved.
     
  8. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2006
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here are the verses again for reference

    11. "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
    12. "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
    13. "Those on the rocky {soil are} those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no {firm} root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
    14. "The {seed} which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of {this} life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
    15. "But the {seed} in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
     
  9. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well Blammo there is alot, and I mean alot, I could say in response to that. However, since most of the Scriptures you provided don't address the topic headings they are listed under, I suspect you are simply pounding the table. Therefore I will not bother trying to go through your post and correct the errors you make. :type:
     
  10. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2006
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus is the one explaining the meaning of the parable.

    In that Jesus is God the Son and He and the Father are One it would stand to reason that what He says is.

    So what am I saying?

    It is what it is.

    According to TULIPism only the elect respond to the gospel.

    So much for TULIP doctrine. Actually these verses are such a vast, big, major, gigantic, overwhelming, devastating, wipe out of the TULIP you wonder why any one would hang on to that miss guided doctrine.


    The Calvinist are "in secret :BangHead: " and all others are :applause: giving it the :thumbs: and waving sings :godisgood:
     
  11. Blammo

    Blammo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, Martin, you have no idea how helpful you've been.
     
  12. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was not trying to be helpful. I was making a point about these type posts. This issue has been beat to death here. Most people, on both sides, talk 'at' each other instead of 'with' each other. The result is everyone is just going in circles. In fact I dare say that many of the non-Calvinists here don't know half of what Calvinists actually believe because they have never bothered studying the issue. Your post/reply, with all due respect Blammo, indicates to me that you don't understand what Calvinism actually teaches. It's easy to argue against something, it is another thing all together to understand something.
     
  13. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,155
    Likes Received:
    0
    That would be a misconception. To be precise, according to TULIPism only the elect respond savingly to the gospel.
     
  14. Blammo

    Blammo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, Martin, I am kinda dumb. Sorry if I offended your superior intellect. I have been trying to understand "what Calvinism teaches" for some time now. The fact that I don't know half of what Calvinists actually believe, is not my fault. I have read every post, by every Calvinist, on every thread I have involved myself in. I have asked many questions, and have tried hard to understand the responses. So, I am either an idiot, or your Calvinist brethren are not apt to teach. I suspect you would go with "Blammo is an idiot". That is fine with me, sir. Don't respond to my ridiculous objections, it is a waste of your time. I, however, will continue trying to learn.

    BTW, there is a reason I spend so much time on this subject. Maybe I would like to know the truth before I quit learning. Glad you are already there. Good for you!!!
     
  15. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==I doubt you are dumb. Sadly that response is what I have come to expect though.

    ==Why don't you read books by scholars (James White, RC Sproul, etc) so that you can find out what the main stream Calvinistic position is? Posts on these boards may, or may not, be a truthful representation of what Calvinism actually teaches. I have seen some "Calvinists" on this board make statements that no main stream Calvinist believes. Whether those statements are made by accident or on purpose I do not know.

    ==If you are getting your information from this forum your problem is sources.


    ==Nobody is suggesting that anyone stop learning. I am just saying that maybe you should study the issue more so you can have a better understanding of what Calvinists actually believe before you (a) condemn Calvinism and/or (b) try to debate Calvinists. I have done that with Arminians. I have books by major Arminian teachers, and I have read those books. I have also talked with many Arminians. Noticed I said "talked" and not "debated". I have tried to understand what they are actually saying. Sometimes I have found that what I "assumed" they were saying was not actually what they were saying.
     
    #15 Martin, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2007
  16. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    You mean to tell me that only believing jews (the elect) respond to the Gospel? What about believing gentiles?
     
  17. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,155
    Likes Received:
    0
    You misunderstand 'total inability'. The inability is not the inability to respond to the gospel. The inability is to respond to the gospel with saving faith (ie. faith which brings forth fruit - all other sorts of faith being 'dead' according to James). Clearly, only the last group was of that type.

    Your logic with these passages relies on a fallacy of causality. So, for example, if I said "If you talk, then you are alive." it would be obviously fallacious to claim that I am arguing that talking is a condition for being alive. The if-then link *might* describe causality, but it might also be describing what is a sure signifier of future salvation. IOW, the logical import of those passages could just as well be "If you will not be saved, then you do not believe". To use those verses to create a causality link in one particular direction is fallacious. One must first presume the direction of the causality to make the argument you make - an assumption not supported by the passages.

    The passage does not speak of potential atonement. The passage says that Christ IS the propitiation for the sins of the world. Thus, if the verse used as face value is a negation of limited atonement, then you must also be willing to accept the verse at face value when it says Christ IS the propitiation (not potential, but actual) of the sins of the whole world. It is intellectually dishonest to do otherwise.

    That being true, can you explain how Christ atones for all sins yet some still go to hell?

    You misunderstood his statement. What he did was grant, for the sake of argument, that salvation is contingent upon belief. What he is asking is that IF salvation is contingent upon belief, then how can you hold to a OSAS position? Logic would argue that if salvation is contingent upon belief, then when one stops believing they are no longer saved. Thus OSAS saved and 'salvation being contingent upon belief' would seem to be incompatible. How do you reconcile this?
     
  18. Blammo

    Blammo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Martin,

    Thank you. You are correct.

    These forums are good for fellowship, small talk, and entertainment. These forums are no place to learn anything. I have not gotten anything but confused when trying to learn something here.

    I will take your advice and begin to read books by scholars. But, first and foremost, what I have already begun, is reading the Bible front to back again, this time with an open mind to the 5 points. I used to read through the Bible every year, while studying certain books rather sporadically. Studying from front to back is going to be good. I'm excited.

    I am not an Arminian, at least I seriously doubt I am. For one, I do not believe I keep myself saved by works. That excludes me from that camp I'm sure.
     
  19. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,155
    Likes Received:
    0
    You mean to tell me that 'elect' means only 'believing jews'?
     
  20. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the context calvinists use it...yes. Pleas show me in context where humans (as there are "elect" angels) who are NOT believing jews are referred to as the "elect".
     

Share This Page

Loading...