Calvinist vs. Arminian preaching

Nick,

No one is arguing that Paul thought he could save them by himself, nor is anyone suggesting that God didn't plan on using jealousy as a means to motivate some Jews. You totally missed the point.

Its the fact that God DOES use means to motivate man's will that shows us men's will is a factor in the process. The will of men must be persuaded and as you even stated MOTIVATED.

I thought in your system that the effectual calling was the motivator that was irresistable? Why did God resort to jealousy? Was His irresistable call not irresistable enough?

The other point is that the language of the apostle is language of someone who really believes that his words and actions could make a difference in the outcome of those being saved. He doesn't talk like a Calvinist saying, "We beg those of you who are chosen by God to come and respond to the calling that you can't possibly resist!" He says "We beg you on behalf of Christ to be reconciled to God." And he doesn't qualify that pleading by saying, "But hey, if your really elect you'll come whether I beg or not."

Other means such a signs and wonders can OBVIOUSLY from scripture affect the decisions of men as seen in Tyre and Sidon etc. How can that be when the ONLY means that works within your system is the effectual calling?

It just doesn't add up and I think you know it.

Nick, if you agree with me just ignore this post and we will all know that you concede to this point.

 

Augustine - The Apostle of Calvinism

The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination
By Loraine Boettner D.D.a

http://www.ccel.org/b/boettner/predest/28.htm

1. Before the Reformation

It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of Predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century. The earlier church fathers placed chief emphasis on good works such as faith, repentance, almsgiving, prayers, submission to baptism, etc., as the basis of salvation. They of course taught that salvation was through Christ; yet they assumed that man had full power to accept or reject the gospel. Some of their writings contain passages in which the sovereignty of God is recognized; yet along side of those are others which teach the absolute freedom of the human will. Since they could not reconcile the two they would have denied the doctrine of Predestination and perhaps also that of God's absolute Foreknowledge. They taught a kind of synergism in which there was a co-operation between grace and free will. It was hard for man to give up the idea that he could work out his own salvation. But at last, as a result of a long, slow process, he came to the great truth that salvation is a sovereign gift which has been bestowed irrespective of merit; that it was fixed in eternity; and that God is the author in all of its stages. This cardinal truth of Christianity was first clearly seen by Augustine, the great Spirit-filled theologian of the West. In his doctrines of sin and grace, he went far beyond the earlier theologians, taught an unconditional election of grace, and restricted the purposes of redemption to the definite circle of the elect. It will not be denied by anyone acquainted with Church History that Augustine was an eminently great and good man, and that his labors and writings contributed more to the promotion of sound doctrine and the revival of true religion than did those of any other man between Paul and Luther.

 

Its a good thing Augustine came around to correct the years of mistakes by all those people who could actually read Greek and knew the apostles personally.

If what this says is true then why not canonize Augustine?

The truth of the matter is that predestination is spoken of in scripture only twice by Paul, both of which he refers to what believers are predestined to become. Paul NEVER speaks of lost some being predestined to believe. Faith is always seen and understood in scripture as being a genuine response of men to God's revelation of Himself. Augustine, because of his inability to understand the original language, his upbringing and his philisophical approach to the text was unable to decern these things in light of the whole counsel of God's word. Simply put, he made a mistake and because of his ability to systemitize and debate his mistakes were popularized and adopted by many lesser informed followers. That is very unfortunate.

 

This is where I must part company with Spurgeon. Even if you believe in limited atonement and double predestination (which I don't), the preaching of law has three purposes and, therefore, the law should be preached to all men:

1. For those who stop their ears and will not hear the gospel, the law is a curb on sin. 1 Tim. 1:9
2. For unregenerate sinners, the law brings them to a knowledge of their sins. Rom. 3:20
3. For believers, the law shows what Christians should do to lead a God-pleasing life. Ps. 119:9

[ July 30, 2004, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

I think Paul honestly believed exactly what he said.

#1. That his actions provided motives for the lost to choose christ.

#2. That even negative motives like fear and jealousy CAN motivate someone to take a right action.

#3. That HIS actions were resulting in some people CHOOSING Christ and that means "salvation". He did not claim to BE the savior but CLEARLY he claimed that HIS ACTIONs made a REAL difference.

Everything about that sentence argues against Calvinism. Surely you see that.

No doubt. The problem is that REASONING and PREACHING information/argument/compelling reasons is the Arminian Model.

Calvinism says that NOTHING you say, or I choose makes any difference at all. Only God "turning on nature such that I am born-again" decides if I will be a Christian. The discussion could just as easily "not happen at all". God needs none of it and in fact can not even USE the discussion until AFTER the lost are ALREADY BORN AGAIN - according to Calvinism.

Motivating the born-again saint to be repent is the only option left to Calvinism. It is powerless to do anything with the lost who in the non-born-again-state can't even HEAR what is being said. The dead hear nothing.

Half and half - Calinvism and Arminianism.

To make it fully Calvinist you must change your "give the Holy Spirit and ability to hear" -- to "make them be born-again" because even Arminians believe God gives the Holy Spirit "To convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" enabling all the lost to hear the Holy Spirit that He sends.

He stands at the door and knocks - those on the inside who hear AND choose to OPEN the door - will have Christ IN THEM, the new creation.

The Calvinist point would consistently be "and watch those who are to be born again suddenly GET born again while we sit in amazed silence".

But the ARMINIAN argument is "and preached to the lost, spiritually dead, totally depraved souls BEGGING THEM on behalf of Christ to BE RECONCILED to Christ".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hmm.. Well said.

And you even listed Ps 119:9.

Of course - you know I "had" to agree with that post!

In Christ,

Bob