Calvinistic Baptists should be Dispensatdional.

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Russ Kelly, Feb 7, 2004.

  1. Russ Kelly

    Russ Kelly
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    Premise: Calvinists teach that God exercises His Sovereignty in the predestination, calling, and sanctification of believers.
    Text: Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are irrevokable (without repentance KJV).
    Conclusion: If God's calling and gifts to individual believers are irrevokable, then this should also be true concerning national Israel as his undeserving-called and undeserving-blessed nation through Abraham who did not ask God to call him.
    Jeremish 31:31-34 is the New Covenant promise and it is in the context of 31:35,36. What do we do with the word "nation" of 31:36?
    35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
    36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
     
  2. Grasshopper

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    The writer of Hebrews quotes these verses concerning the New Covenant:

    Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord.10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people:11 And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest of them.12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And their sins will I remember no more.13 In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

    Seems to me verses 35 and 36 must be interpreted in view of the New Covenant.

    As for "nation" here is what Strongs says:

    Original Word-ywg
    Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling- Gowy

    Definition is simply nation or people.
    Why not the "people" of the New Covenant. The spiritual "nation" of believers.
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    Agree, russ! I am a Reformed Baptist, and fight to make folks see the literal, absolute truth about the doctrines of grace.

    Then find it odd that most of my theological compatriots eschew the absolute literalism (real throne, real kingdom, real king over a real kingdom) and are sucked into the allegorical vortex of covenant theology.

    They think I am odd in theology. Odd? Yes, but consistent!
     
  4. Russ Kelly

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    Grasshopper
    We should not simply obliterate the hundreds of unconditional promises made to national Israel because that makes God unfaithful to his promises. God's promises are not based on man's or Israel's obedience, but on the vouchsafeness of His name.
    Yes, "goi" does mean "nation" or "people," but that does not negate the "house of Israel" and "house of Judah" in both Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8.
    Although the New Covenant promises were first given to national Israel, Christians are claiming the blessings of them before the believing Israelites do. That is seen in Romans 11.
    God's promises made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David often mention a literal land with physical boundaries and a literal throne and House of David. There is no way to spiritualize these facts and say that they are only being spiritually fulfillled by Christians in general.
    Are we to pretend that God was not serious when he inspired Jeremiah to write 31:35,36? My Old Testament would look half-eaten if I were to blot out the hundreds of similar texts.
     
  5. Tim

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    So are we to pretend that God was not serious when he inspired Jeremiah to write 31:7,37? Texts which indicate the promises will be fulfilled with a "remnant", i.e. part, and that God promised not to cast out "all" the seed of Israel--but didn't promise He wouldn't cast out some?

    Context.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  6. Russ Kelly

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    Tim
    I posed this discussion to Calvinists, not Armninians.

    Rom 9:6-8
    6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
    7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
    8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
    Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew....

    The "remnant" you refer to does not include the Gentiles in the context of Jeremiah. Among the physical lineage of Israel, God always reserved an elect (by foreknowledge) of the promised seed through whom He would fulfill his promises to national Israel. You mention context. The new covenant promises to the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah" in Jeemiah 31:31-37 are in the national Israel context of the remnant of verse 7. Your hermeneutic using verse 7 cannot cancel the clear meaning of verse 37.
     
  7. Tim

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    I don't get the Arminian comment in your response. I'm a Calvinist myself.

    Yes, God kept His promise to the remnant of the nation of Israel by saving some, not rejecting all the seed. That's the importance of those qualifiers in Jeremiah. I wasn't including gentiles in the "remnant".

    The church was indeed "born Jewish"--thus God fulfilled His promise. We gentiles were merely grafted into the Jewish remnant, i.e. church.

    God saved only eight in keeping His promises to Adam and Eve regarding their physical seed. He saved several thousand in keeping His promise to Abraham's physical seed.

    There's no breach of promise to Israel, whether you're a dispensationalist or not.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Dispensationalists would are that God was serious. I think you are the one with a problem with these verses and particularly the context of them. You are the one saying that "Israel" no longer means "Israel" but rather means teh church. I would ask you, Are we to pretend that God was not serious when he promised to save a remnant of Israel?

    This "remnant" idea shows that Israel can't be the church. A remnant is a part of a larger entity. The church which is saved is not a part of the larger entity of teh church. The church is saved in entirety. Israel can have a remnant saved to the exclusion of the larger entity. The "remnant" concept is a very strong proof for the dispensationalist view of the fundamental dichotomy between Israel and the church.
     
  9. Russ Kelly

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    Tim wrote: "He saved several thousand in keeping His promise to Abraham's physical seed."

    God promised far more that that. Look at the last chapters of Zechariah, Joel. Amos, Ezekiel and the Davidic Covenant. They discuss the redeemed remnant of national Israel being blessed in their land and in their Temple. This is not spiritualizing; this is lliteral.

    As a Calvinist you believe that God will not change His mind about any of the promises he made to you as his ELECT. For the very same reasons, God will not change his mind about any of the promises he made to Israel as his ELECT nation.

    Calvinistic covenant theolgoy teaches that God is Arminian concerning his promises to the nation Israel. That is an inconsistent hermeneutic.
     
  10. Tim

    Tim
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    PL,

    A remnant of Israel became the church. The scriptures are clear about that--and it fulfills God's promises not to reject all of Israel. That was the issue of this thread.

    RKPHD,

    You're changing the argument on me. Are we now talking about using a consistently literal hermenuetic when we read typological prophecies of the OT (land, temple, etc.)? I thought your thread thesis was simply that God had to be faithful to His promises to save the seed of Israel--which of course, He did, dispensational or not.

    btw, I reject the sytems of both dispensational and covenant theology. However, I do believe that the faithful remnant of Israel became the church--as the book of Acts (among others) illustrates.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    Several problems:

    1. The Scriptures are not clear about this; in fact, the Scriptures do not even intimate this.

    2. A remnant of Israel must mean, by definition, a part of the original. The church was never a part of the original; the church cannot be a remnant. The church is a completely new institution, not the leftovers or reconstitution of the old one. God made the promise to ethnic Israel. Therefore, the promise has to be fulfilled to ethnic Israel.

    The point of the thread is to show that God's calling is irrevokable, meaning it can't be changed. The calling was to a nation; it must be fulfilled to a nation, not to an "un-nation."
     
  12. Tim

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    If we use the language of Peter in the NT, we get the distinct impression that believers do constitute a "nation" (1 Peter 2:9,10). From the introduction to the book , we also get the distinct impression that he was addressing (at least primarily) the dispersed Jews, who were "elect" of God.

    How can you say that the church was not a part of Israel? It was born out of Israel. Again, Acts makes that very clear.

    Tim
     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    What version are you using? Acts doesn't say anything of the sort.
     
  14. Dr. Bob

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    I'm with you on this point. Is "inconsistent" a nice way of saying "confused"? [​IMG]
     
  15. Dave Taylor

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    Larry wrote:
    Larry,
    Would you include the following folks as being apart of 'the remnant of Israel'?

    </font>
    • Peter</font>
    • Andrew</font>
    • James</font>
    • John</font>
    • Bartholemew</font>
    • Philip</font>
    • Judas son of Alpheus</font>
    • James the Less</font>
    • Simon Zealotes</font>
    • Matthew</font>
    • Thaddeus</font>
    • Nathaniel</font>
    • Mary Magdeline</font>
    • Lazarus and Sisters Mary and Martha</font>
    • Zacceus</font>
    • Matthias</font>
    • Justus</font>
    • Barsabas</font>
    • Simeon</font>
    • John Mark</font>
    • Luke</font>
    • Barnabas</font>
    • Silas</font>
    • Stephen</font>
    • Paul</font>
    • Timothy</font>
    • Titus</font>
    • Philemon</font>
    • Onesemus</font>
    • Jude</font>
    .....need I list anymore examples?

    If these folks above do not qualify as 'the remnant of Israel' then who otherwise qualifies as being 'the remnant of Israel'?

    If they don't also qualify as being 'apart of the early church' then who otherwise qualifies as being apart of 'the early church'?

    Can you not see that those who are apart of 'the remnant of Israel' are also apart of 'the early church'?

    These folks above are perfect examples of single individuals who are apart of both groups:
    </font>
    • 'The Remnant of Israel'
      and</font>
    • 'The Early Church'</font>


    -----------------
    Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

    Galatians 3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

    Ephesians 3:21, 4:4 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end; There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

    I Corinthians 12:12 "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "

    2 Corinthians 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ"

    Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

    Hebrews 2:10, 10:10, 13 "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    No, because the remnant of Israel is an end time promise, that in Romans 9 is still future. The OT revelation about the remnant tells us that it will be ethnic Jews who repent and accept Jesus as the Messiah at the end times, or to use the OT language, "in those days." For me, it is hard to get around that.

    The people you mention are part of the church.

    []/qb]Can you show any verse that tells us that these people are part of the "remnant"? The truth is that you can't, and therefore you haven't listed one example of the remnant yet. You call them the remnant because you need them to be, not because God says they are.

    The OT specifies them as being ethnic Jews will be saved in the end time. YOu earlier referenced Deut 29 (I think). Did you read it? It specifies that those who are drawn back will be those who were banished. Was the church banished? Of course not. The nation of Israel was banished. And therefore, the nation of Israel must be the ones who are restored. Even Romans 9 talks about the remnant being teh sons of Israel contrasted with the Gentiles, and calls the remnant a posterity. That can only be referring to the nation of Israel.

    They are a part of the early church. But remember, Scripture never calls the early church "Israel;" that is the creation and assertion of people reading something into Scripture that is not there. Their system demands it; Scripture doesn't support it.

    Nope, because Scripture (our authority) does not make that case. And you made it without Scripture. Scripture does not tell us that these people are part of both groups. You are the one who said that. God did not say that.

    You list a number of verses in closing. But for what purpose? None of them talk about the remnant I don't think (though perhaps I missed it). YOu didn't even attempt to make a case for it.

    You have taken these verses and tried to insert your idea of the remnant into it. That is not good sound exegesis. While some may let you get by with it, I won't. I don't dispute the truth of any of those verses. I do dispute the way that you are apparently trying to use them. Because you assume without proof that Israel and the church are the same, you think these verses apply to the remnant. But you did not make a scriptural case for it. In fact, you offered not one exegetical reason why we should believe that the church is the remnant. Why not? Should we just take your word for it?

    Those verses describe things that are true about the church.

    As I have always maintained, this is a problem that will only be solved by rigorous exegesis of the text itself, apart from teh presuppositions of a system that must be true. We do all approach the text with presuppositions, but we must allow them to be refined by the text. We cannot simply redefine the text for our own ends.

    [ February 11, 2004, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  17. Tim

    Tim
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    DT,

    Thanks for the specifics!

    Yes Israel and the Church overlapped in the first century. The NT proof is overwhelming.

    Tim
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    IN what way did they overlap? The fact that Israelites were a part of the church is, as you say, overwhelming. The fact that Israel became the church or that the church assumed the promises made to Israel is non-existent.

    You guys have a tendency of making grand assertions and falling way short on making your case from the text. You assert overwhelming proof but never show it. That cannot be considered worthy of belief.

    You may well feel that you can make your case from Scripture, but neither you nor Dave has actually attempted to do that. Citing verses can be done by anyone. Showing that those verses support your point is something entirely different.

    As I see it, here is what you need to do: First, show places in Scripture where the "remnant" is equated to the church. Second, you have to explain the passages that seem to indicate that the remnant is indeed distinct from the church.
     
  19. Dave Taylor

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    Larry asks:
    OK.

    Here are over 118 scripture references and quotations that will show you that Israel became the foundation for the church and were the early members of it.

    (noone was replaced bytheway, the faithful Jewish Remnants just squeezed over a little tighter to allow new faithful Gentile and later Jewish converts to come in to unite with Christ with them as one big happy Family of God as we are taught in Ephesians 2)


    These scripures were plainly written to Israelites and point to 'Israel' as the subject of their teachings:

    Hosea 2:23, Exodus 19:5-6, Amos 9:11 , Ezekiel 37:27, Leviticus 19:2, Jeremiah 31:31 , Genesis 12:7 , Deuteronomy 30:12-14, Deuteronomy 31:6 , Psalms 22:22 , Psalms 44:22, Psalms 95:7 , Psalms 130:8, Isaiah 28:16, Isaiah 49:8 , Isaiah 52:7 , Isaiah 54:1 , Hosea 1:10, Hosea 13:14, Joel 2:32 , Exodus 16:18, Exodus 11:45, Isaiah 35:3 , Isaiah 52:11, Exodus 15:13, Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 12:10, Numbers 12:7, I Chronicles 28, 2 Samuel 7, Exodus 19:6, Jeremiah 2:2, Psalm 78:52, Deuteronomy 7:7, Judges 15:18, Genesis 32:28, Psalm 149:2, Ezra 5:1, Jeremiah 11:16, Isaiah 41:8


    Why do they all have NT references then, pointing to the Christian Church instead of ethnic Israel?

    Old Testament Promises fulfulled in the New Testament
    *****************************************************

    The OT Promise
    Hosea 1:10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are sons of the living God."

    The NT fulfillment
    Romans 9:23-26 "that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory, even us whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As He saith also in Hosea: I will call them My people, which were not My people, And her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people; There shall they be called children of the living God."


    The OT Promise
    Hosea 2:23 "Then I will sow her unto Me in the earth; And I will have mercy on her that had not obtained mercy; Then I will say unto them who were not My people, thou art My people; And they shall say, Thou are my God!'"

    The NT fulfillment
    1 Peter 2:9-10 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God, which had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy."


    The OT Promise
    Exodus 19:5-6 "Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people, for all the earth is mine.
    And ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak to the children of Israel."

    The NT fulfillment
    1 Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation"


    The OT Promise
    Amos 9:11 "in that day will I raise up The tabernacle of David, which is fallen, And close up the breaches thereof; And I will raise up its ruins, And I will build it as in the days of old"

    The NT fulfillment
    Acts 15:14-18
    "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return And will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up; that the residue of men might seek after the LORD, and all the Gentiles, upon whom My name is called, saith the LORD who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world."


    The OT Promise
    Ezekiel 37:27 "My tabernacle also shall be with them; yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

    The NT fulfillment
    2 Corinthians 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God. As God hath said, I will dwell in them And walk in them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."


    The OT Promise
    Leviticus 19:2 "Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, ye shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am Holy."

    The NT fulfillment
    1 Peter 1:15-16 "but as He which hath called you is Holy, so be ye Holy in all manner of conversation, Because it is written, "Be ye Holy, for I am holy."


    The OT Promise
    Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

    The NT fulfillment
    Luke 22:20 "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the New Covenant in My blood, which is shed for you."


    The OT Promise
    Genesis 12:7 "and the Lord appeared unto Abram and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded He an altar unto the Lord who appeared unto Him."

    The NT fulfillment
    Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds as of many, but as of one, and to Thy Seed, which is Christ."


    The OT Promise
    Deuteronomy 30:12-14 "It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."


    The NT fulfillment
    Romans 10:6-8 "But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach"


    The OT Promise
    Deuteronomy 31:6 "Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee."

    The NT fulfillment
    Hebrews 13:5 "Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."


    The OT Promise
    Psalms 22:22 "I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee."

    The NT fulfillment
    Hebrews 2:12 "Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee."


    The OT Promise
    Psalms 44:22 "Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter."

    The NT fulfillment
    Romans 8:36 "As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."


    The OT Promise
    Psalms 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest."

    The NT fulfillment
    Hebrews 3:7 "Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)"


    The OT Promise
    Psalms 130:8 "And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities."

    The NT fulfillment
    Titus 2:14 "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity"


    The OT Promise
    Isaiah 28:16 "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste."

    The NT fulfillment
    I Peter 2:6 "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded."


    The OT Promise
    Isaiah 49:8 "Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee"

    The NT fulfillment
    2 Corinthians 6:2 "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)"


    The OT Promise
    Isaiah 52:7 "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!"

    The NT fulfillment
    Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"


    The OT Promise
    Isaiah 54:1 "Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. "

    The NT fulfillment
    Galatians 4:27 "For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband."


    The OT Promise
    Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

    The NT fulfillment
    Hebrews 8:8 "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."


    The OT Promise
    Hosea 1:10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God."

    The NT fulfillment
    Romans 9:25 "As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."


    The OT Promise
    Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes."

    The NT fulfillment
    I Corinthians 15:55 "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? "


    The OT Promise
    Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."

    The NT fulfillment
    Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."


    The OT Promise
    Exodus 16:18 "he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating."

    The NT fulfillment
    2 Corinthians 8:15 "As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack."


    The OT Promise
    Exodus 11:45 "For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy."

    The NT fulfillment
    I Peter 1:16 "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. "


    The OT Promise
    Isaiah 35:3 "Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees."

    The NT fulfillment
    Hebrews 12:12 "Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;"


    The OT Promise
    Isaiah 52:11 "Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD."

    The NT fulfillment
    2 Corinthians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."


    Bonus Verses to Consider
    ************************

    </font></font></font>
    • THE FIELD OF GOD
      Jer 12:10 says the Israelites, but I Corinthians 3:9 says the Christians</font>
    </font></font>
    • THE KINGDOM OF GOD
      I Chronicles 28:5 says the Israelites, but Colossians 4:11 says the Christians</font>
    </font></font></font></font></font>
    • THE FLOCK OF GOD
      Psalm 78:52 says the Israelites, but John 10:14-16 says the Christians</font>
    </font></font></font></font>
    • JERUSALEM
      Psalm 149:2 says the Israelites, but Galatians 4:26 says the Christians</font>
    </font></font>
    • THE NEW COVENANT
      Jeremiah 31:31-33 says the Israelites, but I Corinthians 11:25 says the Christians</font>
    </font></font>
     
  20. Russ Kelly

    Russ Kelly
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    Tim wrote: "Are we now talking about using a consistently literal hermenuetic when we read typological prophecies of the OT (land, temple, etc.)?"

    The Dispensational is: "Be consistent: since the O.T. prophecies about the first coming of Christ were literally fulfilled, then the prophecies about the second coming of Christ shoudl also literally fulfilled."

    Please plainly state your consistent heremeneutic. Do you actually think that the hearers of the O.T. prophecies thought that they would only be fulfilled typologically? Does that not make God into a dedceiver?

    Your list of Jewish Christians only proves that many Jews were among the first to accept the gospel under their new covenant promises. The ABrahamic covenant of Genesis 12:1-4 offers them national and seed blessings. They can be both and receive both promises because they are the ELECT in two ways, but Gentiles cannot.

    Gal 6:16 "And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, "AND" upon the Israel of God." "Kai" cannot be forced to mean "who are also."

    Peter saw a great difference between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. After ACts 10 he limited his minitry to mostly fellow Jews.

    Again, if "Israel" does not mean "Israel," then why does the book of Revelation, written 60 years after Calvary make a distinction between especially ELECTED Israelites and others?
     

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