Calvinists and Children

Aaron · Jan 4, 2007

mnw said:

Please let me begin by saying I am not looking provoke a "fight", these are genuine thoughts that led to genuine questions.

Last night I stopped in my 18 month old daughter's room on my way to bed. She was fast asleep and looked completely peaceful. It amazes me the love a father can feel for his child... I began praying for her, especially her salvation.

Then a thought struck me that sent a chill down my spine and brought a tear to my eye, momentarily - "What if she is not one of the elect?"

Now, I know we do not have a 100% safe formula or theology to ensure our children one day recieve Christ. But, if I were a calvinist the thought of one of my children being condemned to Hell from eternity past would prevent me from ever having children in the first place.

Again, I realise the argument of Sovereignty will be played and some would say if I were destined to have children I would have children.

But the whole thought that God would have condemned my child to hell would prevent me from ever having children.

I believe salvation is of God, 100%, but I don't go for the whole predestined against our wills thing.

I know I am bringing out nothing new here, and maybe it is a thought shot through with misconceptions, but I just wanted to share it, throw it out there for the masses to consider.
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I had a similar experience years ago, but mine came from reading Foxe's Book of Martyrs and reading of the tortures inquisitors inflicted on children in an effort to get parents to recant. And I mean little children, children too young to understand what was being done to them. I thought, "How could I resist that?" Yet, the Christians did resist. I then understood the saying of Christ, If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple, Luke 14:26.

I learned the difference between natural love and agape love—or, more accurately, I got a glimpse of it. Natural love for my children besets me, and tempts me to forsake Christ. It also causes me to doubt God's wisdom in His government of the world. (See the highlighted part of your quote.) I did pray more earnestly for my children after that experience, but I also prayed that Christ would give me More Love to Him. Don't let natural love dictate your theology, or command your actions. Pray for more love to Christ.

More love to Thee, O Christ, more love to Thee!
Hear Thou the prayer I make on bended knee.
This is my earnest plea: More love, O Christ, to Thee;
More love to Thee, more love to Thee!

Once earthly joy I craved, sought peace and rest;
Now Thee alone I seek, give what is best.
This all my prayer shall be: More love, O Christ to Thee;
More love to Thee, more love to Thee!

Let sorrow do its work, come grief or pain;
Sweet are Thy messengers, sweet their refrain,
When they can sing with me: More love, O Christ, to Thee;
More love to Thee, more love to Thee!

Then shall my latest breath whisper Thy praise;
This be the parting cry my heart shall raise;
This still its prayer shall be: More love, O Christ to Thee;
More love to Thee, more love to Thee!

reformedbeliever · Jan 4, 2007

mnw said:

Please let me begin by saying I am not looking provoke a "fight", these are genuine thoughts that led to genuine questions.

Last night I stopped in my 18 month old daughter's room on my way to bed. She was fast asleep and looked completely peaceful. It amazes me the love a father can feel for his child... I began praying for her, especially her salvation.

Then a thought struck me that sent a chill down my spine and brought a tear to my eye, momentarily - "What if she is not one of the elect?"

Now, I know we do not have a 100% safe formula or theology to ensure our children one day recieve Christ. But, if I were a calvinist the thought of one of my children being condemned to Hell from eternity past would prevent me from ever having children in the first place.

Again, I realise the argument of Sovereignty will be played and some would say if I were destined to have children I would have children.

But the whole thought that God would have condemned my child to hell would prevent me from ever having children.

I believe salvation is of God, 100%, but I don't go for the whole predestined against our wills thing.

I know I am bringing out nothing new here, and maybe it is a thought shot through with misconceptions, but I just wanted to share it, throw it out there for the masses to consider.
Click to expand...

What? Did you ask God to violate her free will? Did you ask Him to remove a heart of stone and give a heart of flesh? Did you ask Him to save her?
I have done just that with my children and grandchildren....... and then I put my trust in the Sovereign Creator of heaven and earth... to do what He sovereignly wills to do. I trust Him. Do you?

Salamander · Jan 4, 2007

webdog said:

I'm saying just what the text says....only those that are given to Christ were given by the Father, and of those, Christ will not cast any of them out. That is what the text implies, is it not? I do not read into it what a calvinist does. Seven verses later we are told that no one comes to Christ unless drawn by the Father, so those who come and are given to Christ were drawn and given by the Father. Both texts do NOT state the converse, however, as is taught in calvinism.
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Actually, and I agree with you, the Father draws all men unto Himself through the lifting up of His Son.

All men have that chance to respond to that drawing of the Spirit of God but all men won't respond the same way: those who respond accordingly to salvation will be saved and in no wise cast out. Those who respond negatively are still drawn until they reach either the day of salvation, or the converse, the day appointed to die and face the latter Judgement at the Great White Throne: aka, the second death.

I see we both KNOW what Eph 1:4 means about being IN HIM.

We weren't elect and IN HIM before we were born the first time, it is only we are IN HIM after the second birth, then are we elect/regenerate.:godisgood:

mnw · Jan 4, 2007

Thanks for the posts all.

I know its treading on theological ground which has firm adherents on both sides.

But, what I believe I have believed since before being a parent so it has not changed my theology, it is just a fresh application of something I already knew.

But, even with the areas of disagreement, I appreciate your posts.

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