Calvinist's belief VS TEV

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Askjo, Jul 23, 2003.

  1. Askjo

    Askjo
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    the Today's English Version replaced the term "blood" with "death" in most key passages.

    A Calvinist named John MacArthur wrote, "It is possible to become morbid about Christ's sacrificial death and preoccupied with His suffering and shedding of blood. It is especially possible to become unbiblically preoccupied with the physical aspects of His death. It was not Jesus' physical blood that saves us, but His dying on our behalf, which is SYMBOLIZED by the shedding of His physical blood. ... the only way we can participate in the New Covenant, is through the atoning DEATH of Jesus Christ, made effective for us when we trust in Him as saving Lord"

    What do you think of that?
     
  2. Ransom

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    Why should I accept that one has to do with the other?
     
  3. Bugman

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    I think your trying to link MacArthur with the Good News Bible (Also called TEV), with little evidence.

    MacArthur has never claimed that the blood refrence should be removed from the Bible, he's well versed in greek and if you have read his bible studies you would know that he is nearly obsessive abotu going back to the greek to get the original words, the original meaning. If it says blood then it should read blood in english, and there is no evidence that he would disagree with that. Now what is ment by blood, being somewhat symbolic or not in some cases is a different matter which you brough up on another post.

    If you are proposing that MacArthur somehow liked the way the Good News Bible translated the greek I would like to see some evidence. I would liek to see some evidence of what he thinks of the translation period. He doesn't even mention it when asked about best translations to use ( http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/IA-translation.htm )

    And what's this somehow got to do with Calvinism? Simply becasue John MacArthur is a Calvinist and there has been controversy about his belief in the blood that somehow all Calvinists endorse the Good News Bible? It might suprise you but the Good News Bible was one of the quickest Bibles to be approved by the Catholic Church for use, they aren't Calvinist so by your logic non-Calvinists have issues with the blood of Christ as well.

    Bryan
    SDG
     
  4. Forever settled in heaven

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    o really? replaced from what previous document? ;)

    is it ever advisable to be UNBIBLICALLY preoccupied w any aspect of doctrine? if u think so, u might agree. [​IMG]
     
  5. Jeffrey H

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    okay with me!
     
  6. Scott J

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    This is part of a 20+ year old false accusation against MacArthur that David Cloud recently tried to revive.

    MacArthur answered the charge to the apparent satisfaction of the original accusers about 20 years ago. He goes into a deeper explaination but effectively he says that Jesus' blood was not some kind of magic potion that is literally administered to someone or their sins nor would it have saved someone that it splattered on.

    Just another case of Cloud taking cheap shots at someone... maybe he is a little jealous?
     
  7. Terry_Herrington

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    Cloud specializes in cheap shots.
     
  8. Johnv

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    I think they should use whatever was used in the original tests. If someone could list a few verses, I could look them up to see what's in the original greek/hebrew.
     
  9. Askjo

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    E. L. Bynum answered on John MacArthur And The Blood Of Christ.

    Website: Bynum's comment on John and the Blood of Christ

    David Cloud showed what MacArthur wrote. David also showed what he found MacArthur's quotation from MacArthur's commentary on Hebrews. This commentary was published in 1983 by Moody Press. Moody Bible Institute.

    See the website: What did MacArthur write on Hebrew commentary?

    Dr. R. L. Hymers, Jr. answered on MacArthur and the blood of Christ from the website here:
    THE CULTS, DR. MACARTHUR, AND THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

    KJV -- Romans 3:25

    Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

    TEV -- Romans 3:25

    "God offered him, so that by his sacrificial death he should become the means by which people's sins are forgiven through their faith in him. God did this in order to demonstrate that he is righteous. In the past he was patient and overlooked people's sins;"

    Does John MacArthur support TEV?
     
  10. gb93433

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    When you read the TEV you must realize who it was translated for. If I remember right it was translated for those with a sixth grade reading level who are not church attenders nor believers. Which means that other words were used in place of words ending in -tion, such as salvation. If you wil ask many regular church attenders in the church you attend you might be surprised at what people will say when you ask them basic doctrinal questions.

    Not too long ago I attended what would be classified as a fundamental Bible believeing church. The Sunday School teacher asked the people, "What is a Christian." Al kinds of answers were given. Most of them talked about the works of a Christian but not what a Christian is. Not one person said a Christian is one who has a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. The average age in the class was about 40.

    Youmay be as shocked to hear about this as I was to see. But start by asking that same question to people you know and see if they can tell you what a Christian is. You might be as surprised as I was.
     
  11. Bugman

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    I'm still trying to work this all together in my head...

    You are trying to link MacArthur to the TEV somehow, yet you have no evidence of it. Infact the evidence shows that MacArthur perfers the literal translation and wants his Greek translated correctly. Unless you have any evidence to persent that directly ties MacArthur to the TEV your not going to get anywhere.

    You have already started another thread on MacArthur and the blood of Christ in which we've went over why his views are not heritical, and are infact orthodox.

    And whats up with you linking this to his Calvinistic viewpoint as well? Perhaps it's becasue he's a dispensationalist that he has the view on Christ blood that he has, or maybe it's becasue he spends over 30 hours a week studying the Bible...

    Bryan
    SDG
     
  12. Dr. Bob

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    What kind of logic is this? On occasion, the poorly translated TEV replaces "blood" with "death".

    What does John MacArthur have to do with this conversation? He NEVER replaced "blood" with "death". To be honest, he didn't translate a single verse in the TEV.

    I use the word "blood" and "death" almost interchangeably. They are the same. To make an artificial distinction is absurd.

    Bottom line of the issue is "guilt by association". John uses "death", Bob uses "death", TEV uses "death" therefore they all believe the same.

    Lutefisk. :rolleyes:
     
  13. Askjo

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    If John and you believe the death of Christ and the blood of Christ are the same, I would say, "Calvinism's theology!" :rolleyes:
     
  14. Dr. Bob

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    Askjo - Are you listening to what you're saying? If someone uses the phrase "death" of Christ rather than "blood" of Christ, they are a calvinist?

    Okay. That's your call! I feel like the Apostle Paul makes good company!

    HERE ARE A FEW TIMES WHEN PAUL CHOSE TO SAY CHRIST "DIED", NOT "SHED HIS BLOOD" --

    (Rom 5:6 KJV) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    (Rom 5:8 KJV) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    (Rom 6:10 KJV) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

    (Rom 8:34 KJV) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    (Rom 14:9 KJV) For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

    (Rom 14:15 KJV) But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

    (1 Cor 8:11 KJV) And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

    (1 Cor 15:3 KJV) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    (2 Cor 5:14-15 KJV) For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

    (1 Th 4:14 KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    (1 Th 5:10 KJV) Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

    There are more . . . [​IMG]
     
  15. Forever settled in heaven

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    not really, it's just good KJB1611 (NOT KJBO!) theology: "haue not tyed our selues to an vniformitie of phrasing, or to an identitie of words."

    geddit? [​IMG]
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    Calvin's theology has nothign to do with this. The shedding of blood is meritorious only because of the death (Lev 17:11 -- it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement). The Scriptures plainly declare that the wage of sin is death, not blood. References to the blood of Christ are references to the death of Christ because it is his death that saved us.
     
  17. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Askjo; [​IMG]
    I would say John Mac Authur most likly didn't intend for it to sound just like it did. He knows that it's the Blood that cleanses and is ultimatly saves us for without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.
    Lev 14:25 And he shall kill the lamb of the trespass offering, and the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot:
    Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    The Blood of the greatest Lamb of all Jesus Christ, cleanses us from all unrighteousness. We are saved by the Blood which is His favor, not by death, because it's the blood that cleans us up to make us presentable to Him.If we are wash in His blood we have His grace
    May God Bless You.
    Mike
     
  18. Scott J

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    The sources you quote are certainly worth noting.

    That said, Bynum's article is by and large a case of making a mountain out of a mole hill. A word to the wise... when someone uses as many ellipsis as Bynum used while criticizing someone, find out what the ellipsis stand for.

    One question, if Jesus had not died would His shedding of blood have been sufficient to save the lost? MacArthur is absolutely right in his assertion. The shedding of blood is symbolism for His death.

    I would challenge you and Cloud to read "The Murder of Jesus". He does not take Christ blood nor His suffering nor His death lightly at all.

    If read in context, MacArthur's argument is effectively that the blood Jesus shed was not a magic potion nor is it applied to our sin by some ceremonial rite (ie. transubstantiation). "The Blood" is demonstrative of Christ's sacrificial death. Again in "TMoJ", MacArthur details how Christ died was exactly as it needed to be in order to fulfill prophecy and the picture of OT sacrifice.

    Skimming the article (I read what I could stomach), it appears that Hymer's is babbling on in ignorance. He takes a separate issue, the Lord's Supper, and associates it to this particular, narrow subject... without ever citing anything written by MacArthur about the Lord's Supper. I hope I am right and that he is just ignorant... otherwise he must be intentionally deceptive.

    BTW, Hymers is wrong. He is creating a false dichotomy when he separates the blood from the death. The blood and the death are inseparable and not divided with respect to atonement. The blood Christ shed in dying fulfills the OT requirements- But only as consummated by His death and resurrection can it save by cleansing us of our sins.

    I doubt it but that is speculation on my part. However, the charges you recite against this godly man are baseless at best and devious at worst.
     
  19. Scott J

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  20. Askjo

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    Correct! [​IMG]

    Without the shedding of the blood when Jesus died for us, there is no forgiveness of sin.

    Hebrews 9:22
    "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

    Matthew 26:28
    "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

    Ephesians 1:7
    "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

    Colossians 1:14
    In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    Death can't forgive us but the blood of Christ. The KJV is correct on Romans 3:25 reflecting the "blood". The TEV is incorrect because of its controversy with the misinterpretation itself.

    Dr. Bob Griffin, you are right that Jesus died for us, but how would the death forgive us our sins?
     

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