Calvinists have a "higher" view of mankind than Non-Calvinists

My object was to show Skan's OP premise correct. If men are sinners by necessity, then at best they can be considered victims.

However, if man retains the true ability to choose either good or evil, then a man is 100% responsible for his own sin, and cannot blame another.

So, the Reformed/Calvinist view presents a man as a victim, the non-Cal view presents man as a transgressor.

Skan is correct.

Seeing I believe men truly make their own choices and have no one to blame but themselves, I am under no obligation to provide a cause outside the man's own volition.

It is you that believes a man is a sinner by necessity at birth and must explain what caused this.

 

So who is the one guilty of victimizing these poor unfortunates, including me. That was the question I initially asked. I need to know!

 

I answered. I believe men retain the ability to freely choose either good or evil, so I am under no obligation to explain a cause outside the man.

It is you that believes a man is born with a sin nature that irresistibly compels him to sin, through no choice or fault of his own, and therefore it is your obligation to explain what caused this.

So, you tell me.

 

I completely disagree. There is much more to Christianity than Calvinism.
I for one do not base my belief on the rejection of Calvinism. I base my Belief on the Word of God. I am not a Non Calvinist. I am a born again Christian who disagrees with the doctrines of Calvinism. There is only one true doctrine. The doctrine of Jesus Christ.
MB

 

You are most certainly correct! And Jesus Christ taught:

John 10:26-30
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

Now where did the Father get them? He chose them!

 

Many men trample what they know to be truth, because they mistakenly believe that to submit means they will never be able to sin again. Some men even love sin more than God. Some are so conceded they don't think they even need a God. Some flat out hate the idea of a higher power than them selves. Some hate God because of the conviction and can not be convinced because they have harden themselves against God. And some simply have no conscience for conviction to work on.

Seems to be a very poor set of examples. When I consider all the work my Lord did on me. Though I know any answer here would only give you something to jump on.
My Lord died for me. That alone should have covered it. This alone should turn the hardest of hearts yet it doesn't. The reason for that is the ability to rebel this is there choice. We all have this choice. No where in scripture does it ever say man has no choice. Yet it does say;
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

You have to do the same which God do you want to serve
MB

 

They weren't his sheep, the same as you weren't his sheep before you believed. Believing is what makes us sheep. Believing is what causes our submission to God.
However you claim to be a sheep before you were saved. which is saying you were born saved instead of in sin. Make up your mind, either you are a sheep or you aren't. It's either you are, or you aren't, you cannot be both.
MB

 

:laugh:

:laugh::laugh::thumbsup:

 

And yet you claim to believe the teaching of Jesus which teaches exactly the opposite of what you post here;
[QUOTE26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. ][/QUOTE]

Old regular posts the verse...you look at it,,,but do not "see it"

 

MB

Show me where I claimed that I was a sheep before I was saved. If you can't then you owe me an apology for the above statement which is pathetically untrue!

 

It is not my opinion. Sometime back I asked on BB about how many have read any of Calvin's works and very few responded positively. Have you read any of Calvin's works such as his Institutes?

So much for your opinion.

 

MB

You are borderline close to questioning my salvation That is a NO, NO!

However, since you ask I serve the LORD GOD of Sovereign Grace. The GOD who revealed Himself in the writings we call the Bible, the God who revealed Himself finally through the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

You are borderline close to questioning my salvation That is a NO, NO!

I understand that it is a BB rule not to question a persons salvation, but what is the big deal?

If I put a quarter in my pocket, I know without a doubt I have a quarter in my pocket.

If Bill or Joe tells me they doubt very seriously I actually have a quarter in my pocket, why would I be offended or care what they say when I know the facts.

The fact is you should not be offended or feel threatened if someone doubts or questions your salvation.

If you feel threatened by words on a computer screen you might need to reaffirm your belief that you are in fact saved.

Sorry or going off topic, carry on....

 

No I don't feel threatened. I was simply calling MB's attention to the Forum rules. But you take a devious opportunity to do the same thing that MB has done.

I have routinely experienced this same attitude on this Forum in the past. It is quite common from dispensationalists, less so from some freewillers.

 

It is not devious if you feel threatened by a weakness in your belief and it shows up by me exposing it. Calm down and realize that you are saved and it does not matter what anyone says or thinks about it, be strong brother!

 

You haven't exposed anything!

 

Then why worry if someone questions your salvation?

 

Did you or did you not state this question in post 46

Being chosen does not make you a child of God or a sheep. Being saved makes you a sheep.
No doubt you were attempting to convince me that unless we are a sheep we cannot hear or understand which isn't true even in the least.
In post 47 You said;

Simply you have no idea what any man is given. All men are drawn, because all men have been chosen for Salvation even though not all men will be saved. Man's rebellion is why most men aren't saved.
Yet you still want to impress others with the idea some men can't respond which you have no scriptural support for.

Then you accuse me;

I never even implied what you are accusing me of here and you know it. You just don't have an answer to what I said. So instead you accuse me of a made up charge.
You say your not a Calvinist well then you should know grace is not sovereign. God is Sovereign There are not two sovereigns.
All men have been given a measure of faith whether they hold on to it or not.
If it were true that some cannot come because God has prevented them then the Bible is a lie when says that Christ died for the whole world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This enables every mothers son to come to Christ. All they have to do is choose to stop fighting against God and trust Him.
MB

 

MB

I posted the following [#52] on Skandelon's thread "Let's hash out the distinction between Original Sin and Total Depravity"

Perhaps you can understand; but I will not hold my breath!!!