Calvinist's Misconception of 2 Peter 3:9

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, Apr 20, 2005.

  1. icthus

    icthus
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    The verse in question is:

    "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

    Just who is Peter referring to when he says, that "God is not willing that anyone (Greek "tinas") should perish (apolesthai, infinitive mood, lit: "to perish"), but all to repentance to come"

    Firstly, if this verse be taken to refer to the "elect", then what of Peters words, that the Lord is "longsuffering" towards the "elect"? The Greek verb, "markothumeo", literally has the meaning, "to be long-tempered", or "to bear, or patient with". Why would this be said about God's action towards the "elect". Is He being "patient" with the "elect", because some of them don't want to be saved? The language does not suppoet the notion of some, that God is "waiting" for all of the "elect" to be saved. This same thing Paul tells us in Romans 9:22, where he says that God "endured with much longsuffering, the vessels fitted for destruction" Why would God want to "bear patiently" with those who are "fitted for destruction", if it is not because He wills that they are all saved?

    Next, as I have said elsewhere. Why would God be said, not willing that any of the elect perish, when this is a negative? Surely God cannot "will" something that he does not "desire" (I am playing on words)? Peter then introduces the next sentence with "alla" (but), used after a negative, "but rather", that the "elect" came to repentance. Makes any sense to limit this to the "elect"? Why would it be said, that God would rather that the elect got saved? This is a certain thing, and there cannot be any doubt in the outcome of the "elect's" ultimate salvation.

    There is no doubt in my mind, that the language of Peter clearly shows, that the Lord is "longsuffering", and "willing", for the Salvation of those who are the "non-elect". Peter here has in mind those he mentions in 2:1, "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."

    I am sure that any honset study of this verse, in its context, will shaow that the Lord Himself ensured that the Atonement is for "everone without exception"

    :D [​IMG] [​IMG]

    ___________________________

    Edited to correct title spelling. It was really bugging me. :D

    [ April 20, 2005, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  2. Timtoolman

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  3. TCassidy

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    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us (the elect), not willing that any (of us, the elect) should perish, but that all (of us, the elect) should come to repentance.

    A text out of context is a pretext.
     
  4. icthus

    icthus
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    TCassidy, I expected the classic Calvinistic response from you. You quote the text back to me, but you fail to deal with what I say. Is that all that you can do as an answer? If you were candid, you could not disagree with me here, as any other interpretation is impossible. Why don't you examine the Greek and see where you are wrong. It reads better in the Greek, than it does in English. When you can respond to each of my points, then I would be willing to listen. [​IMG]
     
  5. TCassidy

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    Because what you said contradicts what the verse says.

    You spin straw men that have nothing to do with what the verse says then batter those straw men and think you have vanquished the clear, simple statement of the text.

    For instance,
    No, He is patient with us because we are sinners.

    You then erect another straw man by saying,
    "The notion of some?" Who says the verse is talking about God waiting for all the elect to be saved? Can you quote one credible Calvinist source who has made such a statement?

    Only if you believe the context determines the meaning.

    It doesn't. It says that all the elect, even elect sinners, will be saved in spite of their sin.

    Exactly! Now you have it! God is assuring the elect that their eternal destiny is not in any doubt at all. The elect are eternally secure in Christ.

    Only if you ignore the context. The antecedent of the pronouns is clearly the "us" in the previous clause.

    Exactly! The elect will not be deceived by the false prophets who teach destructive heresies which deny that salvation is 100% of the Lord and requires no works of any sort on the part of man.

    Only because you believe anyone who disagrees with you is dishonest so the only way to be "honest" is to agree with your twisting of the verse to fit your Arminianism.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Since they are fitted for destruction (contrasted with those prepared beforehand for glory), how would they get saved? I pointed this out to you this morning and I don't see any response. You completely ignored what the text says.

    Until this morning, I was leaning towards the all inclusive view of 2 PEter 3:9 rather than the elect view. I had previously held the elect view, but changed recently to the all-inclusive view. But after reading your comments on it this morning, I think you have convinced me to switch back.

    The point of God not being willing for the elect to perish is simple. If he returns right now, the elect who are not saved, would perish. That is why he has patience and endures the wickedness of the non-elect.

    Whlie you may be sure what "any honest study" of the verse will show, you cannot be sure that your study is honest. You have made some very good points against yourself ... at least for those who actually think about what you said.
     
  7. rc

    rc
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    Icthus....

    Just because you can read a "Vines" doesn't mean you know Greek...
    TC has done all that he has to in order to show WHO Peter is talking TOO.

    And it DOES read better in the Greek...
    The personal pronoun 1st person plural DIRECTLY links to 1 Peter 1.1 who he addresses as the ELECT... Called in 2 Pet 1.3 and uses 3rd person in chapter 3 to express those NOT elect ... THEIR in verse 3.

    Sorry fish...
     
  8. icthus

    icthus
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    Cassidy and Larry, you both seem to have your heads well buried in the sand. So much so, that you simply cannot, or, rather, will not see the verse for what it says. Dou you not understand? Why would Peter write, "God is not willing that any of the elect perish". Can you read this much? WHY? It does not make any sense that God would ever "will" or "desire" such a thing. So, why say it?

    Larry, you have only switched back because of Cassidy's misleading remarks here, as he does on 1 John 2:2, where even Dabney says that he is wrong
     
  9. icthus

    icthus
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    Nothing to be sorry about, as there is no doubt that you, Cassidy and Larry are wrong. Your spin on this verse is what i expect form Calvinists, like they distort what "kosmos" means in John 3:16, and 1 John 2:2, contradicting what the Greek authorities say.

    As for your slur about my ability on the Greek language. You would do well as a fellow Christian (I take it you are one), that you get to know exactly what i do or do not know, before you make a fool of yourself. :D
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    I actually have responded to you twice now on this verse today alone. And you have not bothered to answer back, except with these posts with no content.

    Yes, I do.

    I just explained why. Why didn't you read it and interact with it? WHY? It makes no sense that you would not read a clear black and white answer and ignore it, pretending like it hadn't been given. So, why do it?

    Actually, to be honest, I didn't even really read what Thomas said about it. I am well familiar with the arguments on both sides, and with the four basic positions. I answered you this mornign when Thomas was probably still in bed.

    So, why not answer the substance that has been put forth in refutation of your position?
     
  11. icthus

    icthus
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    Larry, I now will deal with one of your posts.

    "Since they are fitted for destruction (contrasted with those prepared beforehand for glory), how would they get saved? I pointed this out to you this morning and I don't see any response. You completely ignored what the text says"

    What you do not understand from the context, is, that Paul says of the "vesels of mercy", that "He had afore prepared unto glory". BUT, when Paul speaks of the "vessels fitted for destruction", he does not say that they are "fitted" by God. A good example for this is found in Acts chapter 13. In verse 46, Paul and Barnabas said, "seeing you put it from you (reject the Gospel), and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life (God did not so judge them), lo, we turn to the Gentiles...And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the Word of the Lord: and as many as ordained themselves (so the voice in the Greek is in the middle, contrasted with verse 46) to eternal life believed" By their acceptance of the Gospel, they "enrolled themselves" to "eternal life"

    You also said:

    "The point of God not being willing for the elect to perish is simple. If he returns right now, the elect who are not saved, would perish. That is why he has patience and endures the wickedness of the non-elect"

    This is very interesting. I have never heard this before. You say, that, when Jesus returns, the "elect who are not saved, will perish". Sinec there will never be a time when 100% of the elect will be saved, then we can conclude from your own words, that an elect person can indeed lose their salvation.

    I understood "election" to be something that God did in eternity past. "Elect before the foundation of the world". If by "elect" it does not mean "saved ones", the what exactly does it mean. Those "elected" by Jesus Christ, then can be lost? My mind can't get hold of Calvinism any more, it is filled with contradictions, and unbiblical nonsense
     
  12. TCassidy

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    Let's see. You are 3 hours ahead of me, so, if I got up a 6AM it was already 9AM in Michigan, so, yep, I was probably still in bed when you answered him. :D :D
     
  13. russell55

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    It is. God chose people to bring to saving faith within time.

    They won't be lost, because what God wills, he accomplishes. But if he changed plans (which he won't do) and returned before all of the elect ones were brought to faith, then those elect people who had not yet believed would perish, since faith is required in order to be saved.

    Well, yes there will be. At some point in time unknown to us, but known to God, he will have brought all of those he chose before the foundation of the world to faith.
     
  14. icthus

    icthus
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    It is. God chose people to bring to saving faith within time.

    They won't be lost, because what God wills, he accomplishes. But if he changed plans (which he won't do) and returned before all of the elect ones were brought to faith, then those elect people who had not yet believed would perish, since faith is required in order to be saved.

    Well, yes there will be. At some point in time unknown to us, but known to God, he will have brought all of those he chose before the foundation of the world to faith.
    </font>[/QUOTE]What a complete load of unbiblical nonsense, and not even one Scripture to back up your theories
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    I have no problem with 2 Peter chapter 3. The context of chapter 3 talks about the day of the Lord and the judgement of the world. Apostle Peter gave us the lesson of the flood, what was happened to the world. Noah has been preach and warn to people on the flood. Noah told them to repentance. Noah preached to them for 120 years while built the Ark same time. God could have destroy the world earlier before 120 years if He can. But God was long-suffering with all people for 120 years, God was angry with people because of their wicked, He want to punish them because of sins. But, God was patience with people. God gave instruction to Noah to built the Ark. Ark was a very huge boat. Noah's time, there was no machine tools and no electric. Noah and 7 people builted Ark by use their own hands. Built Ark took for 120 years. 120 years seem so long time. God was patience with Noah and 7 people built Ark to be completed. Not only wait for the construction of Ark to be completed, also, God was so patience with all people of the world filled with wicked. God commanded all people of the world to be repent. Noah did warn to people about the flood. People do not believe him. There were might be more than 8 persons to enter the Ark by believe and repent. Noah has been warn them for 120 years. No one believe him.

    Also, when after all one kind of each male & female animals entered the Ark, the door of Ark was remain open for 7 days, await for anyone to come into the Ark. But, no one come into the Ark when after seven days past. So, God shuts the door of Ark, rain begun to pour down and wipe all people away.

    So, it shall be same at Lord's coming in the thief of the night -Day of the Lord. Bible warns us, that Lord's coming will be a terrible day and the wrath of God will take people away into everlasting fire without repentance of sins. For nearly 2000 years since after Calvary, Christians have been warning to people of the world, that Christ will come again, and all nations shall face the judgment of God os his wrath. Christ might come anytime in our lifetime. We do not know when Christ shall come. Bible commands us all people of the world to repentance of sins. God is long-suffering toward all people of the world, that He does not want all people go everlasting fire, but want all people of the world to repent. God really love all nations of the world according John 3:16; Romans 5:6,8, and 1 John 2:2. God does not want all people go everlasting fire.

    Sadly, most people do not believe the gospel, and refuse to repent of sins, so God send them to everlasting fire because of disbelief and remain in wicked and without repent. Can't blame God for send people to everlasting fire, because of their disbelief and remain in wicked and refuse to repent of sins. God loves people, but hate sins. That why God is so holy, He commands every person to repent of sins, because He is holy. But, most people refuse to repent, want to stay in their own ways. That why God send more people to everlasting fire than eternal life.

    God wants all sinners of the world to repent, because He does not want all sinners go to everlasting fire. Obivously, 2 Peter 3:9 is speak of universal salvation of God's command to all sinners to repent. But most people refuse to repent of their sins, that why they make their choice of their decision. Do not blame God for send people into everlasting fire, because of their sins and refuse to repent of sins.

    Read 2 Peter 3:9 is not difficult for us to understand. So, 2 Peter 3:9 is not fit with 'Limited Atonement or Election' according as what Calvinism teaches.

    The simple questions:

    What is the purpose of Calvary?
    What is the purpose of the gospel?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  16. David Michael Harris

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    Judgement is coming, its inevitable, God is Holy and He cannot deny Himself, yes He has done all He can, and more than He needed. Let God be true and every man a liar, and shall not the Judge of all the earth do right.

    David
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    I understand that, and I think it is irrelevant. The point is not "who" fitted them; the point is that they are fitted for destruction. There is no chance that it will be otherwise. The truth is as well that God had prepared some beforehand for glory, but they were not yet saved. That, by any other name, is election.

    That is a horrible example. Acts 13:48 has been twisted to try to mean this when in fact it doesn't. This line of thinking is what Hunt tried. It doesn't work.

    No, I didn't say that. I said that if he were to return right now, the elect who aren't saved will perish. That is far different than what you said I said.

    On what basis do you say this? I see no reason to believe that. The Bible in fact talks of the "fulness of hte Gentiles" coming in, which is a reference to the salvation of the elect being complete in this age.

    Two problems. First, it would be wrong to say that in this scenario they lost their salvation. They would have never had it. Second, it would be an improper conclusion from my words. I simply didn't say that and said nothing like it.

    Good so far.

    It means chosen to be saved. It doesn't mean saved.

    No. They are born lost, but will come to salvation.

    No reason to be that way. Just recognize differences. You made several errors here. Just look at the last part for example. You rightly acknowledge that election in in eternity past, and then you say that election means saved. Does that mean people are saved in eternity past? Of course not. You don't believe that. Neither do I. The simple truth is that election is not salvation. Because you made an error on a key definition, your understanding was flawed. And I have demonstrated this time and time again with you, about regneration and salvation being different, about not not being saved twice, now about election and salvation being different, and I could go on and on.

    When you define words the way we do, the understanding clears up.
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Then you are saying that Jesus has no power to save "his elect" except while he is away from them! That doesn't make sense Larry!

    Do you think that Jesus' return is going to be as the lightning from east to west, a flash and he gone again? When he returns, it will be to setup his kingdom on this earth among men and to reign for a millennium, after which this present earth and heavens will disappear to be replaced by an eternal heavens and earth, and God the father shall dwell among men in the New Jerusalem.
     
  19. rc

    rc
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    The answer to both is the GLORY of God.
     

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