Calvinists please help me as I am trying to understand.

""No," says one strong-doctrine man, "God never invites all men to himself; he invites none but certain characters." Stop, sir, that is all you know about it. Did you ever read that parable where it is said, My oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready; come unto the marriage." And they that were bidden would not come. And did you never read that they all began to make excuse, and that they were punished because they did not accept the invitations. Now, if the invitation is not to be made to anybody, but to the man who will accept it, how can that parable be true? The fact is, the oxen and fatlings are killed; the wedding feast is ready, and the trumpet sounds, "Ho every one that thirsteth, come and eat, come and drink." Here are the provisions spread, here is an all-sufficiency; the invitation is free; it is a great invitation. "Whosoever will, let him come and take of the water of life freely."" ---Charles Spurgeon

 

Then it is apparent you do not understand what 'opening the heart' means or entails. Scripture states God opened and she believed NOT She believed because God opened. Secondly you still have yet to post your scripture with states that God ONLY opens the elects heart. Again, blood from a turnip huh.

Anyway, you are going back into your childish postings so you can enjoy talking with yourself. It is a shame that you being a child of God still have not learned to engage debate with grace and civility.

 

Oh yes, but the 'called' there is speaking of the means by which God drew those whom He foreknew. To assume this is speaking of God calling only the elect is going beyond the plain reading of the text and imposing your theology upon the wording.

Otherwise we must declare Jesus a liar who said that many are called but few chosen. And if you will study the parable you will find the many are the two groups called seperately but not called differently. That being the Jews were called by God and since they 'rejected' it, the Gentiles were called. There is no special selecting in the calling there but a definate and real invitation to all men to come and partake.

An illistration of what I mean:
I can send out invitations to 100 people to be my guests. Now all are called and called in the same way, but only those who come are called my guests, yet when refering to the means by which they came are they not 'the called'?

 

True, when I'm intersted in bowling, I go to a bowling alley when I'm interested in debating
I go to a debate forum.

Also true but you didn't explain why "all" doesn't mean "all".

It does matter if the Word of God has a different meaning for each word.

One merely needs to read the passage, those who are called are they who love God.
Whether they were "drawn" is not revealed in this passage.

Roman 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Actually IMO the smokescreen was used to deflect a central issue in this thread:
Verse 1
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Verse 2
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

In verse 1 those who are being coming to Christ are being drawn by the Father, Christ promises to raise them up at the last day.
In verse 2 Jesus now says that if He is lifted up from the earth He will draw all men to Himself.

Please put those 2 verses together and explain/exegete why Christ is not a universalist. That is and has been my challenge to you.

He enlightens every man who comes into this world and reproves /convicts the world of sin.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.​

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

HankD

 

Again,John 12:32;1 Timothy 2:3,4;Romans 1:18-32;Hebrews 3:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 do not produce any evidence,sign or indication of your unique belief that the Lord opens the hearts of all people everywhere just as Lydia's was.

The Lord opens only the hearts of His elect like Lydia. He hardens the hearts of everyone else.

Do you maintain that the Lord opens the hearts of the ones He hardens?! That is confusing theology.

Everyone has stony hearts to begin with.However, the Lord graciously gives some hearts of flesh -- that is tender and responsive hearts.(As Ezekiel 11:19 and 36:26 speak of for examples).

 

Like most calvinist I've debated with, you're under the impresson that some must be condemned in order for God to accomplish his plan,

But what does the scripture say??

2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If God has predestine "ONE PERSON" to be condemned, then the scriptures are wrong,

It was "possible" for God to accomplish his plan without one person being condemned,

predestination doesn't offer "other possibilities".

 

Who did He foreknow? All men?

 

well, at least and at last you gave an answer.

But, the best answer is that the words "all men" in John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The word "men" is in italics meaning that it is not in the original Greek, so therefore its up for debate what the word "all" modifies.

So putting John 12:32 together with John 6:37 it would be pefectly legitimate to say the Jesus would draw "all" those in John 6:37 that "the Father giveth me" in John 6:37.

HankD

 

Excellent illustration :thumbs:

 

And scripture.

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. (Jerusalem, 70AD)

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. (to attend the lamb's marriage supper)

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. (Gentiles church)

 

Truth is suppressed. Jesus said the faith of a child is needed, so there is nothing difficult to understand. The "god of this world" blinds us to this so simple Truth. Your illustration of the 15 year old would have him being regenerated (born again) so he can hear the Gospel. This puts the 15 year old from passing from spiritual death to spiritual life before faith in Christ, hence salvation comes apart from Christ. Faith and regeneration go hand in hand.

 

Sorry as well. I have been out due to an intencely painful inner ear ache.

I want to break your post down a bit if that is ok.
Your above is a true statement but it lacks qualification.
Let ask a couple of questions to 'flesh out' your statement.

1. How will they hear about sin, righteousness, and judgment?
....1a. IOW - who will reveal these things that are only known spiritually?
(this [a] question is holding to the knowledge that spiritual things can not found out or 'known' by men in and of themself - they must be revealed)

Is not the answer God? Do we not find in the scriptures that it is the Holy Spirit who reveals these things?(John 16:8) Do we also not find in the scriptures that God Himself is revealing these things (Rom 1:18-19)?

2. Why is God doing this?

Ok, Some more questions need to asked in order to properly understand this statement.

1. If it is God who reveals these spiritual truths to them then why must we 'assume' they did not understand?

2. If something is 'revealed' is not the definition of the word - to make 'known' that which was not previously known?
...2a. Does not the very word 'know' or 'known' explicitly mean to understand?
(Definition #1 of "Know" - to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty: )


The 'assumption' that these men did not know is not something that comes from scripture but is part of the 'logical' argumentation. Remember that regeneration prior to faith/salvation is not something biblically expressed but is a actaully part of 'logical order' in the Reformed view.

This last part, again, is an assumption.
We find nothing in scripture that says when this happens you will or must come to Christ. But on the contrary we do find in scripture like where Paul states 'do not harden your hearts as in the days of provocation" as he is dealing with God speaking to them and them listening. If we will or must come when God reveals then how can we harden our hearts that are broken?

The above 'assumption' is primarily based upon a systematic view point and not so much as to what the text or scriptures plainlsssssss

I can tell you from personal testimony that when I first 'knew' the truth I didn't respond in faith automatically, nor with brokeness. Fear was most definately there, Oh Yes. And I know many others who claim the same.

No, that isn't what I said at all . I was saying be careful not to allow your theology to dicate what scripture 'should' be saying but let the scriptures dicate what your theology aught to properly be. Secondly, I was saying that context is established by the surrounding passages not the whole of scripture. Yes, the whole of scripture can be used to elaborate on many different truths but each and everyone of those are established by the context of the passages it was written in. And on the whole we can see them playing out not only in their particular piece, but also giving illumination to the whole. Without surrounding context you have nothing but proof-texts waiting to be pulled out of context.

 

I agree with much of what you have here but I also disagree with the presupposition you are bringing into the text that does not warrent it. Mainly in your last sentence where you have them listening because they were chosen. Nothing in the text gives us this reasoning but is something that must be brought in or assumed before hand (Presupposition).

While I agree that it is only the chosen will listen and believe we do not have scripture stating they believe due to the fact they were chosen. There is a world of diffenence here and that difference is mostly added to the text to prove a position.

No question. Agreed

Umm no. We are NOT saved before we believe. Scripture states in no uncertain terms - believe and BE saved. Scripture is also very clear that we were under God's wrath (a position only the unsaved are in); Eph 2:3
We are Christ's 'flock' because God knows those who are/will be His. He knows them and thus knows they will heed His voice.

Again, not true. You are trying to make faith a work but it can not ever be so.
Jesus in John 6 when addressing those who sought Him after the feeding of the 5000 answered a specific question.

Jesus did a play on their words. As Jews they sought to 'do' or work in some way to earn God's favor. Jesus stated this is the work that will allow you walk in God's favor - believe. This is eactly what Paul states in Romans 4:4-6

Faith is not and can never be equated with works. Notice also the word I underlined in verse 5.

No one is disputing the fact that the chosen are those believe and not only will but can only believe when God calls them.

Umm.. again, no. This is not even close to what I am saying nor implying.
Personal participation does not lead to loosing salvation though there are some who do believe that. God makes the promise to change us so that we will have love for Him, cleave to Him, desire after Him (Deut 30:19-20) and that after choosing/believing so the loosing ones salvation is presupposition which ignores other scriptures that attest to this will not be the case.

If you have no participation then my firiend - what is faith for? Why must you believe? Why does God not save anyone until they have believed as the scritpures state? The problem is simple that you are involved and God still reigns over us totally.

Please show where I ever stated a person can loose their salvation.

No problem with the dragging, It gives me something to do at work on the security night shift