Calvinists, what is the purpose of...

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, May 14, 2003.

  1. William C

    William C
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have raised these questions before but I'm still not sure what the answer is.

    If men are totally unable, what is the purpose of...

    1. Hiding the gospel from them in parables? (Matt. 13)

    2. Hardening their hearts? (John 12)

    3. Calling them to repentance and faith? (Mk. 1)

    4. Condemning them to hell for not doing what they were unable to do.

    This is a sincere question. I really don't know what the purposes of these things are in the Calvinistic system and I would like to know. Thank you in advance for any sincere answers to this question. God Bless.
     
  2. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll tackle number 4. Man is responsible for his "unableness" through The Fall in the Garden of Eden.
     
  3. William C

    William C
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll tackle number 4. Man is responsible for his "unableness" through The Fall in the Garden of Eden. </font>[/QUOTE]Ok, I used to believe this too Ken, so I know where you are coming from, but please consider something with me.

    When God calles us to repent and believe he is telling us how to get out of our fallen condition; therefore, to say that man is responsible for not getting out of his fallen condition because he is total unable due to that fallen condition is just nonsense.

    I believe that man is fallen. I just can't see how you can believe that man if fallen to the point that he is unable to follow God's request for him to come out of that fallen condition and then for God to still judge him for it.
     
  4. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    I'll tackle number 4. Man is responsible for his "unableness" through The Fall in the Garden of Eden. </font>[/QUOTE]You have yet to prove that man became unable by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The sin in the garden was and remains disobedience of God. That disobedience resulted in Adam and Eve KNOWING they had done an evil thing in the eyes of God. There is nothing in that scenario that indicates that God altered his Created man because of sin, thus making man unable to anything. God cursed the ground so that man must toil to survive. He cursed the woman so that she would have pain in childbearing, and He cursed the serpent.

    If any change of creation occured, it is in the serpent who is now condemned to crawl on it's belly and live in the dust. By the way, was there a Mrs. Serpent? If not, how come we have so many of them on the earth?

    The fact is you are believing some lie that you received from some misguided person.

    The Onus is on you to prove that man is unable.
     
  5. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brother Bill,

    Your four questions shows to all of us your profound understanding as to a sinner's ability to read/hear and understand the Gospel unto salvation. Some people have been taught 'inability' but to us it means that humans are installed with not only a rebellious heart but a free will to turn away from the living God. [Acts 7:51 & John 5:40] If God did not ordain a probation period of time in this life free, of compulsion, hypothetically, He could have autocratically made all sinners to believe. And then we would not need preachers and lay-people who are evangelizing the lost ones.
     
  6. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    No problemo. [​IMG]

    (Rotherham) Isaiah 64:6 But we have become as one unclean all of us, And, as a garment polluted, were all our righteous doings,--And so we faded like a leaf all of us, And, our iniquity, as a wind, carried us away;

    (Rotherham) Romans 3:10-18 Even as it is written--there is none righteous, not even one,
    There is none that discerneth, There is none that seeketh out God:
    A sepulchre opened, is their throat, with their tongues, have they used deceit, the poison of asps, is under their lips,
    Whose mouth, of cursing and bitterness, is full,
    Swift, are their feet to shed blood
    Destruction and misery, are in their ways,
    And, the way of peace, have they not known:
    There is no fear of God before their eyes.

    (Rotherham) Ephesians 2:1 [Unto] you also--being dead by your offences and sins,

    (Rotherham) Ephesians 2:5 Although we were dead by our offences, gave us life together with the Christ,--by favour, ye have been saved,--
     
  7. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Was Isaiah in the garden to witness firsthand what Adam was like before sinning? NO! Isaiah is a human being used of God to tell God's chosen people of the errors of their ways in an attempt to persuade them to repent of sin. He is making no statement here about mans abilities, only about his actions. Actions and Abilities are distinctly different aspects. Abilities denote skill, Actions denote desires!

    Please note that each phrase here speaks of desire and not ability.

    Discerneth is what one does with what one has. That is, one has the ability to discern but does not. You would have us believe that one does not have the ability to discern.

    Seeketh: an action that one must have the ability to do, else it is not possible for one to seek out God, but the phrase says, "there is none that seeketh out God" denoting the ability exists but not the desire to do so.

    Man has a mouth with which to speak that which is in their heart, but man is using the mouth to speak with deceipt, with cursing and bitterness, therefore it is these things that are in the heart of man. Again, the ability exists, the desire does not!

    Metaphorically and spiritually speaking, man is dead to God because of transgressions of sin. Is man dead? NO! Man lives! But the life is natural physical life without having spiritual life. Does man have the ability to have spiritual life? YES! The same spirit with which man lives the natural life can be reborn into the spiritual life. But man has no ability to cause that rebirth anymore than any man can cause his own natural life. Rebirth (regenation if you desire) comes from divine source outside of man.

    This is not proof that the ability does not exist? NO! The ability is there or it cannot be redeemed. Redeemed, implies once possessed, then lost, once again gained.

    You have failed to prove that man is unable. Let's change the tune to, "Man has the ability, but not the desire because of sin!" That is the reason man is instructed to repent from sinning! So long as man continues to sin, the desire to strive for holiness is stifled.

    As you know, I have oft said that man cannot save himself. Man has the ability to have faith. That is demonstrated in whatever state of sin man may be in, for faith is present where knowledge is not. If one has knowledge, for what reason is faith needed. But faith in what? That is where Hearing comes in. Faith in God comes by hearing, the hearing of God's word. Then man having heard God's word can have faith in God, in the same manner (process) that man can have faith in anything. The ability exists in man to have faith. MAN IS ABLE! God made us that way!

    Now to overcome man's reluctance!
     
  8. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    No surprise you disagree, Yelsew. But I did try. And I used Scripture and not quotes from other people. That should make you happy. [​IMG]
     
  9. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    I would be happy if you understand the difference between "ABILITY" and "DESIRE".

    If you understand that Ability denotes skill possessed, where desire denotes motivation leading to action. Skill cannot make you do anything whereas desire is the strongest motivator there is.

    We do not submit to Christ for the reason we do not have the desire to so, not because we lack the ability to submit.
     
  10. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Man lacks the skill needed to come to God. But God enables those He will save to come to Jesus who will raise them up at the last day.

    (Rotherham) John 6:44 No one, can come unto me, except, the Father who sent me, draw him,--and, I, will raise him up, in the last day.

    (Rotherham) John 6:65 and he went on to say--For this cause, have I said unto you: No one, can come unto me, except it have been given him, of the Father.

    Those that are drawn = those that come = those raised up. There is no difference in the populations of these three groups. They are equal groups comprised of the same individuals. There is simply no way around this fact. [​IMG]
     
  11. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Possibly, but NOT according to the scriptures you previously posted!

    This too does not denote skill to do so, but rather the drawing of the father. Does "draw" mean the same as reach down, grab by the nape of the neck and transport toward Jesus, or does it mean to provide the motivation to come. "No one can come to me" is not a matter of ability, but rather desire. No one has the desire except the father put the desire there. The Word of God puts the desire in the hearts of man to come to their savior Jesus.

    We have no recorded evidence that the Father reaches down, takes physical hold of one and pulls that one to His Son. We have evidence that the father has that power, it was demonstrated with Stephen when he was transported to the Eunuch, then again when transported away from the eunuch. I don't think you have any evidence to offer that the father uses that technique for every person that does come to Jesus. No, The father draws men in the same manner that advertising draws people to attractions. The father induces us to come to his Son.

    Same as 6:44, in fact the same event!

    Jesus also said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all to me". And again, "I and the Father are one", "if you have seen me you have seen the father", "It is the father's will that none should perish", etc, etc, etc,
     
  12. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    3,816
    Likes Received:
    0
    The purpose of these things is not answered by way of man's theological systems but by the Word of God itself.

    1. Hiding the gospel from them in parables? (Matt. 13)

    Fulfillment of Prophesy (Mat 13:14 KJV) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

    2. Hardening their hearts? (John 12)

    Same answer as 1 as explained in John 12 Fulfillment of prophecy.

    3. Calling them to repentance and faith? (Mk. 1)

    Fulfillment of Prophecy about John the Baptist

    4. Condemning them to hell for not doing what they were unable to do.

    Not only were they unable but they were unwilling as well.
     
  13. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    You have refuted my claim that the Bible clearly teaches the fact that those that are drawn = those that come = those raised up.

    You have simply argued, unwittingly perhaps, for the hope of universal salvation.
     
  14. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    NOT SO! There is no such thing as universal salvation!

    The clear fact is that although all are drawn to Christ not all believe, not all submit to Christ in faith. Faith in God is the only thing at the judgment that can save one. Universal salvation requires that God save all! If God saves all, for what is there a judgment? For what purpose did God create a lake of fire? Yes it was originally for Satan and his demons, but because many will refuse to have faith in God, God includes those lacking faith among those to be cast into the lake of fire.

    You see, God has already done all the work that is necessary for salvation of man.

    He Gave his only Son to live among us and teach us what we need to know to believe in Him.

    He allowed his Son to be crucified in order to pay the price for the sins of the world. So sin will not be a consideration at the judgment because they have already been dealt with.

    It won't be our works, for Salvation is not of works lest any man should boast. Can you imagine the Boasting Bill Gates could do? Or Perhaps Andrew Carnegie? Etc.

    So With sins paid for and works not a factor, all that is left is faith! You either have it or you don't!

    God does leave one responsibility for man and that responsibility is faith in God! It is faith that will be judged by God! Those with it are spared from the lake of Fire, those without it are cast into the lake of Fire.

    There is no such thing as universal salvation!
     
  15. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's right, they're both, but there is a relationship between the two: They are unable because they are so unwilling.
     
  16. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is no such thing as man saving himself by his self-produced faith as you teach!

    The Bible teaches that faith is a gift from God(Ephesians 2:8). But we've already been through all of this, haven't we? :D
     
  17. William C

    William C
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hardsheller,

    You're the only Calvinist who addressed my full question and you really didn't even address it. I asked what was the purpose of these things. You said they fulfilled prophecy, but that doesn't answer the question. I too believe all of these things fulfill prophecy, I'm looking for the root purpose of the prophecy and their fulfillment. In other word, what did they accomplish, why were they utilized?

    For example, if I were to ask, "Why did Christ die on the Cross." You probably wouldn't say, "To fulfill prophecy," unless of course you didn't have a better answer. You would say, "To atone for the sins of believers." That's the purpose. So, with that in mind can you take another stab at it and tell us what was the purpose of those four things I listed within Calvinism system.

    Thank you.

    (Russell55, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.) [​IMG]
     
  18. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    There is no such thing as man saving himself by his self-produced faith as you teach!

    The Bible teaches that faith is a gift from God(Ephesians 2:8). But we've already been through all of this, haven't we? :D
    </font>[/QUOTE]ONCE MORE so we can be sure of the situation.
    OK, what is the Gift from God?

    For while the grace of God prevails, you have been saved through faith,...Whose faith? (God don't need faith, He is omniscient!)...and not of anything of your own, it is a gift of God, (the faith? or the salvation?) not by anything you have done, so you can't boast!

    Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God! Faith is nothing to boast about, because everyone who believes has faith. None more than others. And no man can earn salvation by works, which is something man could boast about. But God put the cabosh to that!

    So, it must be Salvation that is the Gift of God in this context!
     
  19. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    3,816
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are asking questions like I asked the other day. CLICK HERE

    There is no answer beyond "For God To Bring Glory to Himself" - only speculation.

    While It is certainly true in this case as well, These examples that you point out do tell us something very important about God and how He has worked in history.

    1. He does arrange events and place people in certain time frames and in certain places to bring about the fulfillment of His purposes/prophecies.

    2. He has affected the ability of men to see and to understand or to not see and to not understand spiritual truth in the past.

    3. He was completely in charge of every single significant Spiritual and Physical event that took place through Jesus Christ as recorded in the Scriptures.

    Conclusion: God is in Charge of the Universe. He's at Work in the Lives of His People. He's even at work in the lives of other people, but not all people equally. He is working in history and in real time to bring about His purposes.

    And that appears to me to be more in keeping with Calvinist Theology than with Arminian Theology.
     
  20. Aki

    Aki
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    454
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll tackle number 4. Man is responsible for his "unableness" through The Fall in the Garden of Eden. </font>[/QUOTE]what do you mean by the statement that "man is responsible for his unableness?" when a child is born, he is already unable. did he choose to be unable? did he practice his own volition and chose to be unable? no! rather, he was represented! he would have done the same should he had been in Adam's place, consdering that God chose a perfect representative. but that does not mean that he was personally responsible for his inability. in fact, his inability through the sin nature was transmitted to him seminally.

    more so, that inability did not cause condemnation outrightly, until a sin is in a man. so then, with the Calvinistic teaching, everyone is imputed with Adam's sin. and that is to everyone who is unable to respond for salvation.

    this is not a question of whether God is just with all of these. i know Calvinism could say yes to that with an explanation.

    however, i must say that they cannot prove that a born child is responsible for his own condemnation. he is either a victim of representation, or a victim of double predestination. but Calvinists cannot say that he is personally responsible for his own condemnation. indeed, a born child's volition was never an issue with his condemnation.

    first, the imputed sin that got each one condemned. a born child's volition was never practiced here.

    second, the sin nature that caused each one the inability to respond to God's call was transmitted seminally. no one chose to have that inability. a born child's volition was never practiced here.

    with this, God is just. fine.

    but then, a born child is responsible for his own condemnation? not fine. more so, not proven.
     

Share This Page

Loading...