Calvin's Coffee Clutch discusses Sola Scriptura

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by OSAS, Mar 14, 2005.

  1. OSAS

    OSAS
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    Calvin naysayers love to quote these two scriptures claiming it is man's faith that gets him saved, and not God's grace, so lets take a look at them shall we?

    Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

    2 Timothy 3:15 "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."


    "The Complete Word Study" by Spiros Zodhiates Th.D.


    "Through": (Dia) Refers to space and time as through, throughout, implying transition, continuance.

    "Saved": (Sozo) Safe, delivered. To save, deliver, make whole, preserve safe from danger, loss, destruction.

    "Salvation": (Soteria) Deliverance from sin, and its spiritual consequences, involving an attachment to the body of Christ, and admission to eternal life with blessedness in the kingdom of Christ."


    "Good Old Merriam-Webster" (The backbone of the Calvin naysayer translation process.)


    "Through":

    (1) -- used as a function word to indicate movement into at one side or point and out at another and especially the opposite side of.

    (2) -- used as a function word to indicate passage from one end or boundary to another


    "Saved":

    1 (a) : to deliver from sin (b) : to rescue or deliver from danger or harm c : to preserve or guard from injury, destruction, or loss (c) : to keep from being lost to an opponent (d) : to prevent an opponent from scoring or winning


    "Salvation":

    1 (a) : deliverance from the power and effects of sin (b) : the agent or means that effects salvation (c) : preservation from destruction or failure


    As you can see, "Through Faith" is defined as an ongoing or continuing process. Not the original event that caused the transition into continuation. Debunked. Next?


    Lets look at God's sovereign grace in action...

    Luke 23:42 "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

    Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."


    The Calvin naysayer claims that "Once Saved Always Saved" is hooey.

    Yet here we see God give a direct edict. He is telling the thief on the cross he is saved.

    How does the thief lose his salvation???

    And if the thief could lose his salvation according to the Calvin naysayer, then God has lied!

    God Lies??? If he has lied here in Luke 23:43, what is to stop him from lying in Genesis 1:1 & Revelation 19:11


    Sovereign in his grace, God reserves the right to elect who he gives his redemptive grace to. Jacob not Esau. Israel not Egypt. Peter not Judas.

    God's choice of Abraham is a wonderful example of election and irresistible grace!

    Joshua 24:2 "And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods."

    Joshua 24:3 "And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac."

    Remember old Abe? God snatched him up and said Go! Was it by Abe's faith? Nooo... God gave the order, and Abraham followed.

    What of Jacob and Esau?

    Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger."

    Where in there is Jacob's faith? Wouldn't he at least had have to exit the womb before he could even have a chance at faith??


    Maybe Paul has the answer?


    Romans 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;"

    Romans 9:13 "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

    Romans 9:14 "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."

    Romans 9:15 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

    Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

    Romans 9:17 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

    Romans 9:18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

    Romans 9:19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

    Romans 9:20 "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

    Romans 9:21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

    Romans 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

    Romans 9:23 "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"


    Paul is pretty plain here again. God is in ultimate control. Where is man calling the shots in these verses? God's will in irresistible grace seems plain as day.

    Beloved John can tell you about election and the perserverence of the saints!

    John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

    John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

    And of course... My favorite of all John verses. (Calvinist naysayers really ignore this beauty!)

    John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

    Man's faith saves him? God's grace does not save? Where? I sure can't see it!

    And then there is the grandaddy of all predestination/election/irresistible grace...

    Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."


    Where is that freewill that the Calvin naysayer screams so loudly about?

    Is it here?

    Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"

    Or is it here?

    Lamentations 3:37 "Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?"

    Maybe here?

    Exodus 8:15 "But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said."

    Where is the freewill then???

    Here it is:

    Philippians 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."


    Did I hear someone say Total Depravity? Yes, man is quite inable, so yes grace must be irresistible to be saved...


    1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    1 Corinthians 2:15 "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

    1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.


    Sinners are hostile to God, and when God touches their lives with His sovereign grace, He frees them from sins bondage. As a result, they willingly trust Christ through faith. God doesn't force sinners to believe against their will, he liberates their will by his spirit. He doesn't violate their personalities, he sets them free to be the people whom he intended!
     
  2. Wes Outwest

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    That's quite a sizeable diatribe and will take some time to fully digest, so be patient I will try to fit it into my schedule!
     
  3. rc

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    OSAS,

    Thanks for showing us about 1/300th of the verses of the sovereignty of our awesome God and the depravity of "always seeking evil" man.

    OSAS,

    Wes,
    save time and just say all those verses are just talking about the 12 ! It's easy to do and requires no study and you can just "fit" them out of context?
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi OSAS;
    Are you sure you want to post scripture that refutes Calvinism?
    Mike
     
  5. rc

    rc
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    ILL,
    That's an oxymoron, scripture refutes Calvinism... funny
     
  6. OSAS

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    I noticed you posted no specifics? (There went Sola Scriptura out the window)I am eager to hear which of those scriptures refutes Calvinism...
     
  7. OSAS

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    It was actually hard to choose between all of the scriptural references! There are so many, I just grabbed a few here and there. Would have been up all night if I had tried to list them all!


    Please don't tell me that the Calvin naysayer is still clinging to that tired old "He was talking about the apostles only" excuse???

    How many times does it need to be refuted before they get the drift that God is God, and not man???
     
  8. rc

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    You know how hard it is to let go of all your pride... you cling to any little morsel of fiction you can conjure up... I must have power !!!
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    That's exactly what I've been saying for over 1000 posts! Yet you don't see the truth of what I am saying because you have your head buried deeply in Calvinist Doctrine!

    Revived! Next?
     
  10. Wes Outwest

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    Was it grace, or was it faith? It was both, Jesus behaving according to his Grace, when the one asked to be remembered, AN ACT OF FAITH, Responded with the promise that today thou shalt be with me in paradise!
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    No, he did not tell the theif he is saved, he made a promise to the thief! A promise that was yet to be fulfilled, so the thief had to have faith to believe the promise which became the thief's "new HOPE". The thief could have just as easily scoffed at or mocked Jesus like the other thief, and he would not then have been saved even though Jesus told him that he would be in paradise today. But he did not do that but instead was relieved and uplifted by the hope of fulfillment of the promise made to him by God the Son!
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    Describe Abraham the man in UR (modern day Baghdad). Was he not a devout believer in God? Isn't that the reason God called Abraham to leave UR and go to the land that God would give him for an inheritance?

    Of course we do not know more about Abraham than what is provided in Scripture, but scripture does not describe a "life changing, "born again", experience" for Abraham, only that Abraham was already a believer in God!

    So you Calvinists can scratch Abraham from your list of the Elect!
     
  13. johnp.

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    Greetings OSAS.

    Yea I've asked God already and He told me to mind my own business! :cool:

    johnp.
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    What part of, "God has always treated the Jews differently than the Gentiles", do you not understand?
    If you want to be one who is an Old Testament Jew, then by all means be one. But under the new covenant God is not operating that way He is instead providing the knowledge of himself via his word, and we are either accepting that knowledge and coming to faith, or we are rejecting that knowledge and dying the second death!

    Come into the 21st century, and accept the truth of the New Covenant!
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    Paul sure is a good history teacher, recalling for the Romans, all that ancient Jewish history so that the Romans would know about God, and come to faith in Him through hearing God's word.

    You see the scriptures you posted are all quotes by Paul of the Old Testament writings! They are profitable for education! But they do not PRESCRIBE nor do they SUPPORT, Calvinism's Doctrine of Election!
     
  16. OSAS

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    I saw that you only picked apart the Romans part of my post. So you must have aggreed with everything else I wrote.

    Good! It is nice to see you making progress, and coming around!

    Didya see that rc? Wes is coming home! We should give him a warm hug, and extend a hearty handshake of friendship.

    Luke 15:32 "It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found."

    Welcome to the House of Calvin Wes.

    Your room is on the third floor, second door on the right. Just drop your suitcases on the bed, and c'mon down to the kitchen and pour yourself a cup of coffee, we can chat about "Once Saved, Always Saved."


    This position of yours denies that:

    God is the same yesterday, and today, and tomorrow.

    This position of your supports the claim that:

    God is changing with the times, to adapt to man.

    Ya'll seem to be missing a certain verse in the bible for some reason. So let me post it yet again, in the hopes someone out there will find it one day.

    John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."


    Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...


    Paul starts out letting us know here in this first part of Romans 9 that I quoted, that some might say the example of Issac is innappropiate because Ishmael was the son of the bondwoman and therefore not truly legitimate. So now Paul is going to introduce a second example of God's election of Grace, the example will be Jacob. If the principle of sovereign election were only to be seen in Issac, there would be no biblical pattern, but it is going to be seen now in God's choice of Issac's sons.

    **Romans 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;"


    Jacob and Esau are both in the line of Issac, there is no refuting that. Paul is now explaining that in God's sovereignty, he can supersede the process of natural primogenitureship. The reason for this choice is that... "the purpose of God according to election might stand."

    Whatever God does, it is out of his eternal purpose.

    Romans 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."


    Choosing Jacob over Esau to be the heir of the promise, is a shining example of the sovereignty of God making his personal choices. Jacob was chosen... "being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil." Salvation is not based in human merit. "not of works, but of him that calleth." Salvation is based upon God's divine Grace according to the eternal purpose of His sovereignty.


    **Romans 9:13 "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

    This statement about Esau does not mean to love less, but that God has directed his wrath toward Esau and his decendants.

    Malachi 1:2 "I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,"

    Malachi 1:3 "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."

    Malachi 1:4 "Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation forever."

    Malachi 1:5 "And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel."

    The judgements upon Edom are positive judgements.

    Not the simple abscence of blessing.

    God lays his wrath out upon the sins of Edom, not in some unholy spite, but in righteous judgement. He does the exact same thing with individuals.


    **Romans 9:14 "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."

    As Paul was teaching on the election of God's grace, he knew folks would object.

    That is why he posed this question in reference to God choosing one man, and not another. They would claim that God's choice appears to arbitrary and unjust. Because of our limited knowledge of the mind of God, we will never understand his purpose, and therefore cannot call God unrighteous. God IS righteous, how can he therefore express such a negative as unrighteousness? "God forbid."


    **Romans 9:15 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."


    Remember Moses?

    Exodus 33:18 "And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory."

    Paul in this verse is letting us know that even Moses himself had no particular claim to any favor from God. God operates on the just principle of his eternal purpose.


    **Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

    God's mercy finds its cause in Himself and not in any activity of man.

    Galatians 2:2 "And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain."

    Philippians 2:16 "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain."

    Human activity has no affect whatsoever on the mercy or purpose of God.


    **Romans 9:17 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

    Pharaoh is a perfect example of God's divine mercy. Pharoah was raised up by God, but not even Pharoah's God given power could circumvent God's eternal purpose, or prohibit God from blessing and delivering His people.

    Exodus 9:16 "And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to show in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

    "have I raised thee up" (Hebrew verb "amadth" meaning "stand") God made him king, and kept him there in spite of Pharoah's disobedience, so that the purpose of God might be fulfilled... "that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

    Joshua 2:10 "For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed."

    Joshua 9:9 "And they said unto him, From a very far country thy servants are come because of the name of the LORD thy God: for we have heard the fame of him, and all that he did in Egypt,"

    1 Samuel 4:8 "Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness."


    **Romans 9:18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

    The first half of this verse refers to:

    Exodus 33:19 "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."

    The back half of this verse refers to the occasions where Pharoah's heart was hardened.

    Sometimes Pharoah's heart was hardened by his own opposition to God's will.


    Exodus 5:2 "And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go."

    Exodus 7:3 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt."

    Exodus 7:13 "And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said."


    And other times he was judically bound over in hardness by God, which made the initial indifference a permanent hardening.


    Exodus 5:21 "And they said unto them, The LORD look upon you, and judge; because ye have made our savor to be abhorred in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of his servants, to put a sword in their hand to slay us."

    Exodus 7:23 "And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also."

    Exodus 9:12 "And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses."

    Exodus 10:1 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might show these my signs before him:"

    Exodus 10:20 "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go."

    Exodus 10:27 "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go."

    Exodus 11:10 "And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land."

    Exodus 14:4 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honored upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so."

    Exodus 14:8 "And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with a high hand."


    **Romans 9:19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

    Paul knows that unbelievers are going to naysay his teaching, claiming God can find no fault because it is the way God made them. They will claim that they cannot resist his will, and are therefore not accountable for their lost condition.

    God did not make man the way he is today, He made man in His own image, and man is what he is today because of his own sin.


    **Romans 9:20 "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

    Paul fires a salvo back at the potential naysayer, letting them know that the creature is in no way competent to sit in judgement of the Creator. If you judge the validity of God's actions, you make claim that you are more righteous than God. If you judge the wisdom of God, you claim to be wiser than God.

    We do not flipflop the divine order of creation to Creator. God is not answerable to man for what he does. God must remain consistant with His character. Divine sovereignty does not mean do the things that divine character will not allow. If we trust the character of God, then trusting the wisdom of His sovereignty is easy.


    **Romans 9:21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"


    **Romans 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"


    **Romans 9:23 "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"


    Here we see Paul begin a little philosophical presentation.

    Paul is not saying that God created one vessel to wrath, and another vessel to mercy.

    God displays the justice and grace of God through both the persistant unbeliever, as well as the believer. God does not take one lump of clay and make it into a good lump, and yet another lump and make it into a bad lump, ergo God does not make one person good, and yet another one evil.

    "fitted to destruction:" is in the greek middle voice, and is not to be interpreted that man fits himself for destruction. God doesn't do that. What is said is that those who were prepared by the grace of God are fitted by God for eternal life, through Christ Jesus.


    As you can see, Paul is not blindly reading out of a history textbook, he is in fact showing how God's sovereignty and grace can be seen in historical fact.
     
  17. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Wrong assumption OSAS, let's finish your first lesson in Calvinism before proceeding further.
     
  18. OSAS

    OSAS
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    I have already finished giving you your first lesson. I am moving ahead in the syllabus. Stay focused Wes... [​IMG]
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    Why did God bring His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON to the world through a Jewess, one of HIS chosen race, if it was not the Will of the Father that All the Jews were to "come to him"?
     
  20. OSAS

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    Flip back quite a few pages to the O.T. to see why God brought Jesus through Mary.

    Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

    This was never a "Jewess" issue. This was a one on one issue between God and the woman (Eve).

    There were no "Jews" in the garden. This timeline shaking showdown in the garden involved God, Satan, the man, and the woman. The Creator and his Creation(s) in a confrontation.

    You see... Satan had been a verrry bad boy, and God had to punish him for his naughtiness.
     

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