Can a Calvinist explain Matt 8:10?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by SolaScriptura in 2003, Dec 21, 2002.

  1. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    (Mat 8:10) When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, "Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."

    Considering that Calvinism teaches you cannot have faith until God gives it to you, how could Jesus marvel and say that he "found" this faith? Would he not rather say "I have not GIVEN so great faith, no, not in Israel" according to a Calvinist?

    [ December 21, 2002, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  2. russell55

    russell55
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    I don't know how we can speculate what Jesus would have said. Even though faith is produced within us by God's work, it is still our own faith, and would be found within us. It is a very weak argument against faith being a gift, given the direct statement in Philippians that our faith is given to us.
     
  3. Hardsheller

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    Was Jesus Marvelling over the Centurion's faith or over the fact that God the Father had given it to him? I think the latter.

    This was outside the realm of normal Jewish religion - a Centurion with faith? - Unusal occurrence and Jesus then turns around and uses it as a teaching moment for his Jewish followers.
     
  4. Primitive Baptist

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    God grants faith. Those to whom God has granted faith, utilize it. God does not believe for us, but enables us to do so.

    [ December 25, 2002, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
     
  5. Yelsew

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    God's chosen people, the Jews, did not have the faith that the Centurion had because the Centurian heard that Jesus could in fact perform miracles, healing the sick, etc., and believed that he, Jesus, would do one for him, the centurian, and the story relates that Jesus did perform a miracle for that Centurian. Marvelous faith!

    The priests of God's chosen people who couldn't perform miracles, wanted to silence Jesus and keep him from performing such miracles, because the "old church" had gone completely corrupt and faithless. So how did the Centurian come to have such faith? By hearing! Just like you and I come to faith! The difference is you and I do not have Jesus' physical presence so that we can walk up to him on the street and petition him personally. We must make our petitions through a faith in the "unseen God".
     
  6. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom. 10:7)

    The preaching of the gospel does not give faith, but rather it gives the born again elect something in which to place their faith - Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

    "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." (1 Cor. 1:23, 24)

    The gospel is the power of God to "them which are called." There is a spiritual call and a gospel call. Without the spiritual call, no man will ever benefit from the gospel call.
     
  7. Yelsew

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    To the exclusion of all others?

    If only the "born again elect" can hear the Gospel, how is it that one becomes "born again"?

    Jesus told Nicodemus, "Ye must be born again". Well guess what? Nicodemus, a teacher of authority did not know how to be born again. How then is it possible for the common person 'elect' to be born again if a teacher of the land doesn't know? Aren't teachers suppose to teach? Aren't they held responsible for what they teach and fail to teach?

    The truth of Scripture is that to be born again one must "die to self" by recognizing that we are lost in our sin. And we must "sacrifice self" in order to be resurrected in a "new birth" by the power of the Holy Spirit. All of which involves only the spirit for the spirit is the life of the flesh. So our death to self precedes our new birth in Christ. The elect must go through that same process or they are not "born again", they do not come into this world "born again", or even knowing they must be born again. So how then are they the elect?

    The Gospel is the power to ALL who will be redeemed, not just the elect. Besides, I'm willing to wager that you cannot walk down the street and recognize a single "elect" person. I'm further willing to say that all who come to faith in Christ become the elect. It is not for man to know!

    [ December 26, 2002, 05:33 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    Faith is a human beings response to God's offer of free grace. [Ephesians 2:8] The author of Hebrews indicates that the unsaved remained in their lost condition because they did not mix their faith with the hearing of the glorious Gospel. [Hebrews 4:2] The Greek word for 'mix' is (sugkerannumi) meaning to commingle, to combine or assimilate; mix with or to temper together. {Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible; p. 67}

    God depicted by the theologian, Augustine and the Catholic--- Father John Calvin were merely the machinations of their minds depicting the true God as being uncaring and unloving except for His elect. The true portrait of God ordains that a human being be allowed to choose Heaven or Hell for himself or herself.

    Never trade off a Scripture that you understand for one or more that you do not comprehend.
    John 3:16, I Timothy 2:4,6 and myriads of other verses point to the fact that the true God has a universal love and desire to save anyone. The majority will be lost forever because of their refusal to yield to Him by placing their trust/faith in His saving merit accomplished on the middle Cross.

    Respectfully,

    I. Ray Berrian, Th.D.
     
  9. Lone Pilgrim

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    1 Chronicles 29.14 tells us that there nothing that we give God that He has not first given us. This must always be kept in mind. As well, 2 Thess. 3.2 tells us that not all men have faith. So again God is the God of first causes and man has nothing to boast. Faith comes from the One who is faithful, God alone, and is a gift that He works in the lives of His family, John 6.29.
     
  10. Yelsew

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    Well said Dr. Berrian!

    We all too often take one scripture out of its context and build a faith statement from it. The late Dr. McGee on his radio program used to constantly say "when you come to a "therefore," in scripture, you'd better go back and see what the "therefore" is there for.

    [ December 31, 2002, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    In John 6:26-29 indicates that the crowds of people followed Jesus for the loaves of bread and there were also some among those people who desired to do similar miracles that Jesus performed. I believe that is why they said, 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?'

    Jesus keeps pointing the people back to the infinitely more important endeavor and that is to believe in Jesus Christ in matters of salvation and eternal life.

    Our Lord said this. 'This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him, whom He hath sent.' The work of God was not for His disciples to do miracles primarily, but to 'believe' and trust in Christ in order to obtain everlasting life.

    This word, 'work' in the previous sentence is {ergon} which means to toil, doing, or to labor. To believe and or to trust in Jesus portrays our response in actually coming to know the Lord experientially.

    We are saved by Christ through His grace but 'faith' is our response to the loving and forgiving God. [Ephesians 2:8]
     
  12. Lone Pilgrim

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    "We are saved by Christ through His grace BUT"
    I believe both "grace" and "faith" are gifts from God. To imply that man is inherently faithful (faith not being a gift?) with no influence from Creator, or additionally stating that "faith" is of ourselves, flys in the face of scripture, let alone, in the face of the One who is Almighty. We are saved by grace through faith, that NOT of ourselves." I believe faith to NOT be a human product, but rather, as salvation, a gift from above, from our Father. Yes, the response is within the child of God (where the Holy Spirit comes to reside), but the origin is NOT with man. If man believes he has produced faith, it only follows that he will BOAST of what he has done. I consider a worldly faith, ie, "Lord, Lord", to be a false faith. Are you, as well, saying that it is produced in a vacuum, in the sense of advocating the inate goodness of man? It would appear that that would follow. Who saved His people from their sins? I refuse to point at any mere mortal. Siding with Christ. LP
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    I find it most difficult to understand how anyone who knows Christ through saving grace could every think that his or her faith had saved them. Faith is merely a persons response toward the living God.
     
  14. John D

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    Obviously, the point was missed. There is a difference btw faith (human kind) and FAITH ( God given). Our faith tends to be of the fallible kind, whereas Faith given by God is of the eternal kind. As Dr. Lloyd-Jones pointed out in his sermon on "He makes the sea a calm," that the human faith must combine with the God given Faith. Therefore The Lord Jesus Christ's question is a valid one and one that should make every Christian soul-search. What this may have to do with the Calvinistic point of view seems irrelevant to the whole issue. Remember, God tells Moses exactly what Pharaoh will do; what will happen to the Israelites once they get into the Promised Land. Where was freewill when Judas betrayed Jesus because Our Lord said, "...better for that man if he had never been born." This would only be relevant if Man has no freewill.

    Have a blessed day.
     

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