CAn A catholic Agree with me That we aLl are saints to god as Much As mary/Apostles?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, Jul 18, 2012.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    To take it a step further...

    iF one is in Christ jesus, the father sees us exactly as his Son Jesus in a rightiousness sense?
     
  2. The Biblicist

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    Great argument!:thumbsup:
     
  3. Thinkingstuff

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    You are Righteous if you are connected to the vine (Jesus Christ) living in him. But a better question to you is whether you are currently Completely Sanctified? Or are you still working on it? Sanctification that is? Do you still struggle with your tendency towards sin? Do you still occassionally sin? Are you doing away with the sin in your life? Are you actively daily erradicating sin from your life? Are you completely sanctified? Do you want to get that way? Then "God has shown thee O man what is good and what the Lord requires of thee. To do justly, to live rightly, and to walk humbly with thy God."
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    That is talking about the condition for FRUIT production not the condition for salvation.
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    when we receive jesus by faith, God sees us in Him, and forever perfect in regards to keeping the law of God!

    Once saved though, we need to walk and become more into image of Christ, so being conforming more to what God has already declared us to being!

    That part is seperate and distinct from outr rightious standing before God now was fully justified!
     
  6. Thinkingstuff

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    Ok, yes it is fruit evidence of your faith. I can agree with that. Now the question for you is what does the man display when no fruit is shown but claims to have faith? Paul says that
    Paul actively lives the faith he conciously fights to sanctify his life. It doesn't happen naturally but he disciplines himself to do it to obtain it.
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    More than that!!!!! He places us in his relational place with him!!! We are then the truelly adopted heirs able to participate in the divine life of Jesus Christ himself.

    Absolutely that is called sanctification!!!!

    Not at all it is all connected salvation has many different aspects but all aspects are connected. Salvation doesn't only mean salvation from our sins but salvation to be what God made us for.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    I don't think this passage is dealing with the evidence of "your faith." They are said to be in him already and already cleansed by the Word so their salvation is not in question. What is in view is their PRODUCTIVITY for the glory of God.

    The analogy is one very familar with me as I was raised in a fruit producing part of my state. Apple, cherry, peach orchards and grape vineyards.

    The principle here is simple when it comes to PRODUCTIVITY. Pruning accomplishes two things in fruit production. There is the lighter pruning that simply makes a limb more healthy and productive. There is the heavier pruning that eliminates the entire limb altogether. Both are in view here in regard to productivity. Both are forms of chastening. The "purgeth" type is designed to make the individual limb healthier and more productive. The heavier type is to make the vine as a whole more healthier and productive.

    The former is the natural processes of progressive sanctification while the latter is removal from the congregational body (1 Cor. 5). He is addressing his church here as they have just observed the Lord's Supper. The symbolism of the bread in the Supper is designed to represent the unity and purity of the congregational body observing the Supper. Judas left prior to the third cup of the passover feast. Those who do not respond to teaching, admonition, rebuke, reproof are removed from the body (Mt. 18:17-18). This is a form of temporal judgement where they are turned over to men to be judged. The true Christian is subject to the fire of judgement in 1 Cor. 3:14-15 and yet the soul is still saved and so it is here. What is lost, is their fellowship with God ("joy" answered prayer; etc.) and the congregation.
     
  9. Thinkingstuff

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    That is not indicated in the passage it is something you added thus pretext.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    Jn. 17:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    4 Abide in me,


    I will let the reader judge if I added anything to the text that is not there. They are said to be clean already. They are said to be "in me" already. Therefore, he is not questioning their faith but the continuance of their productivity.
     
  11. Thinkingstuff

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    Just reading your quote it seems pretty obvious that Jesus words had a cleansing effect on them and he's indicating to his disciples that they need to abide in him. If what you want it to mean were meant in the passage there would be a statement to the effect my words made you clean and it would not be necissary for Jesus to say "abide in me" because since they are in him there is no reason to tell them to abide it would be more like for you have been in me. But that isn't how the passage reads so again you've pretext the passage.
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    Impossible! You cannot be "in him" and only have a "cleasning EFFECT" upon you? Those who are "in him" have been "cleansED"

    Take note of the perfect tense verb "I HAVE SPOKEN" which wrought the cleansing. The perfect tense points back to a completed action that continues to be complete at the point of speaking. They "ARE" clean because they have been cleansed by the Word of Christ.

    He said this previous to this back in John 13. He told them they were all washed but Judus. The only part that needed continual cleansing were their hands and feet or their daily lives - this is the work of daily progressive santification but their regeneration had been completed. No one is "in" Christ who has not been "created in him" by divine quickening (Eph. 2:1,5,10).
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Jul 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2012
  13. billwald

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    The devil is in the pronouns. The True Believers consistently claim the good stuff pronouns apply to themselves and the bad stuff pronouns apply to other people, denominations, and religions. St John writes that we should judge people by their good/bad works.
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    This is where the RCC false Gospel starts to rear its head again! You would hold to being saved by grace, but really that means we MUST co assist God to save us, byrelying upon theinfused Grace wuithin Sacraments, and that have to get 'enough" in image of jesus to allow God to save us fully, since you do not hold that God can declare a sinner as being rightious until he actually gets that way!
     
  15. Thinkingstuff

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    No you are entirely wrong. 1) with understanding what I am actually saying and 2) your argument.

    1) What does salvation include. Just being free from sin is that the whole of salvation to you? Or is it to be the in every aspect made in the image of Christ and to live as he lived? Which is what I said. And to do all those things we need grace to free us from sin and we need grace to be sanctified. But we still participate which means we get to experience christ life in us. And that is where your misunderstanding is clearly evident.
    2)You need to provide a actual point of validity to start with an argument and work from there.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    We do not participate in regeneration - Jn. 1:13; James 1:18
    We do not participate in justification by faith - Rom. 4:21
    We do participate in progressive sanctification - 1 Thes. 4:1-6
    We do not participate in glorification - 1 Cor. 15:51-55

    The reason we do not participate in regeneration is because it is a CREATIVE act of God - Eph. 2:10

    The reason we do not participate in justification by faith because it is based entirely upon the personal obedience of Christ FOR us - Rom. 3:24-26; 4:21-25 - and faith merely RECIEVES and RESTS in his finished work.

    The reason we do not participate in glorification is because our bodies are dead and our spirits are in heaven and only God can raise the dead and thus unite the two - 1 Thes. 4:14-17.

    In progressive sanctification we do participate because it is God that worketh in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure - Philip. 2:13 and he uses means to PROGRESSIVELY but IMPEFECTLY conform us to the image of Jesus Christ step by step or from glory to glory - 2 Cor. 3:18 - but never finished in this life.

    However, progressive sanctification does not have as its object entrance into heaven but present glory of God, growth in Christ, temporal blessings and eternal rewards - 1 Cor. 3:11-15.
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    You fail to distinguish the initial ONE TIME only act of God that saves us, its thru faith in jesus, NOT anything else, as you lump together saved and becoming more like jesus!

    Your RCC theology has to have us get right enough in a sense in order to have God true when he calls us clean and now saved....

    That is why you see MUST abide MUST do works, in order to get cleaned enough to be able to have God save us!
     
  18. Thinkingstuff

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    You ignore the nature of salvation in that He saves us, He is saving us and he will save us!!!! And in fact I haven't denied faith. But you are because you don't understand that in order to actually have faith you must act on it.

    It's not my Roman Catholic Theology. Its just Catholic Theology.
     
  19. Thinkingstuff

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    Did I say anything about regeneration? No.
    You have misapplied Romans 4 again.

    You've entirely miss applied that verse. Look what it says
    God wills you to be sanctified therefore ABSTAIN. You must actually abstain. And its clear instruction that Paul give so that one abstains which is part of sanctification

    So you are suggesting you don't become glorified? Of course we participate in Glorification as we are the one being Glorified. Do we glorify ourselves no. But that is the state we are placed into. Thats like saying you don't participate in the fun of the roller coaster when you ride it. You don't make it go but you certainly participate in the fun of it.
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    No, in fact it is you that deny it. The past tense is a completed action "savED" and that is the action that Yeshua is referring to. Now either a person is completely "savED" or they are being saved - it is one or the other but not both in regard to the PAST TENSE. The "ed" settles this.

    Regeneration/justification is a completed/finished action and thus can be called "savED."

    However, RCC soteriology denies this. It attempts to make it BOTH completed in one sense but not in another sense and so the distinction of "saved" versus "being saved" is clouded and really denied so that there are really only TWO senses according to RCC soteriology. Progressive salvation begun - continuing and accomplished.
     

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