CAN A CHRISTIAN BE POSSESSED/DEMONIZED?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ROBERTGUWAPO, Feb 5, 2002.

  1. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO
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    Kurt Koch, the foremost Christian expert on the occult and deliverance minister (who has cast out a lot of demons from backsliding, disobedient, dabbling-in-the-occult Christians, says:

    "One question is hotly displuted among Christians. This is the question whether or not a Christian can be possessed. Many years of experience lead me to the conclusion that those who have no experience of dealing with the possessed say "no". Those, who have counseled many possessd ones, know that even believers can be controlled or ruled by demons. These facts do not follow anyone's preconceived ideas. Our ideas must be formed, rather, on the basis of the facts."

    Hey, solid scripture please, and no nutty inferences like "God and the devil cannot coexist together" nonsense...

    :rolleyes: :eek: ;)
     
  2. Barnabas H.

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    Robert, you have gone around this route already. What gives? Didn't you get enough response? [​IMG]
     
  3. ROBERTGUWAPO

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    Dear Barnabas:

    Well, I posted this question last September of 2000. You know, a lot of members have been added; they may have new, fresh, "insights".

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barnabas:
    Robert, you have gone around this route already. What gives? Didn't you get enough response? [​IMG]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    :D

    [ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: ROBERTGUWAPO ]
     
  4. John Wells

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    ROBERTGUWAPO: Where in scripture can you find that a disobedient, rebellious, dabbling-in-the-occult, backsliding Christian cannot be possessed or demonized by the devil?

    Matthew 12:43-45 (ESV)
    43 “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”

    Christians are occupied with what would prevent a demon’s residence - - the Holy Spirit. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 1 Corinthians 6:19 (ESV)

    Pray tell, how can a demon reside in the holy temple of God? The NO VACANCY sign is on!

    [ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: John Wells ]
     
  5. javalady

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    A Christian's soul ("home") is not swept clean & empty, because we are indwelt with the Spirit of God--who never leaves the child of God!
    Even disobedient children of God are not subject to possesion! If that were the case, we'd be hearing from Paul in 1 Cor. 11 that the disobedient Corinthians--rather than being sick or dying early--were demonized and needed deliverance!
    Colossians 1:13 says God HAS delivered us from the power of darkness, and HAS translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son...
    If we believe in the perseverance of the saints, and God's keeping of His children, we believe that we have ETERNAL life, which means our DELIVERANCE is also complete!!
    Now, in saying that I do not mean we are perfect, for sanctification is a life-long process. However, sanctification is an entirely different subject from deliverance.
    There are so many Scriptures that confirm that we either belong to Christ, or to Satan. We cannot belong to Christ in spirit, and not in soul. We cannot have the Spirit of God residing in us at the same time as the unholy spirit.
    Hallelujah! We are "FREE INDEED!" through our Lord Jesus Christ!!

    [ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: javalady ]
     
  6. John Wells

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    Robert,

    I think two scenarios can sum up the experiences you speak of. There may be Christians who secumb to demonic forces and influences around them. They are not possessed, but rather harrassed. Second, of those who claim to be Christians who are actually possessed, well . . . that should be the tip off right there that they are deceived, false believers! Many claim the free gift of salvation without coming anywhere close to being on their knees at the foot of the cross! ;)

    [ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: John Wells ]
     
  7. Brian

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    Amen JW and JL!!!! RG like duh!

    [ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Brian ]
     
  8. Brian

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    Heres a nutty inference about God and the Devil not being able to coexist in a believer. A person cannot be lost and saved at the same time. Our deliverence from sin is so complete that we cannot be possesed by a demon the very embodiment of sin. We can as has been pointed out oppressed, harrased and other wise pestered but not taken over. Demon possesion means that the individual is incapable of controlling themselves, they are not the demon is. If God were to allow this He would then be a liar when He says He will not forsake us see Hebrews 13:5. I know that God is true and no liar so I nor any whom are truly saved can be demon possesed. I hope thats pretty clear and not too nutty.
     
  9. Slain Arminian

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    How prevalent is demonic possession? I've never met anyone who was demonically possessed. Have any of you? If so, how did you know; how did you determine it wasn't mental illness instead?
     
  10. Kathy

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Matthew 6:24
    "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Kathy
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
  11. aiki

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    Hey, Slain Arminian, you should ask your question in reverse (I mean about the mental illness) -- you'd probably be aiming closer to the truth.

    During my time as a Director of a summer Bible camp several years ago I witnessed a young girl delivered from demonic oppression. I say "demonic oppression", not possession, because two days before her "incident" she had given her life to Christ in a chapel service. What was unknown to us before her spiritual trouble occurred was that her life had been steeped in violence and native occult worship. She had come to camp a very angry and violent child. In fact, the night her counsellor came running up to me to tell me this girl was having "a fit" I assumed she meant more violent acting out of the kind we had seen from her earlier in the week. When I arrived at the girl's cabin and saw the state she was in I realized immediately that she was in spiritual trouble. There were three adult counsellors struggling mightily to keep this 50lb. girl from throwing herself around the room. They had pinned her to a bed, sort of, where she was thrashing wildly and screaming something about her brother in Hell. She was totally unaware of any of us. I began to pray but the chapel speaker's wife rushed right up to the child and in a clear commanding voice said, "In the name of Jesus and by the power of his blood I command you evil spirits to leave this girl alone!" Instantly, the girl fell back on the bed as though dead. Then, her eyes opened, and she began to look frantically around her asking, "Are they gone? Are they gone?" We questioned her and found her story incredible. She said she had seen two demons (her own word) on the way to the washrooms just before bedtime. On her way back she saw them again. Since she was with a counsellor she mentioned their presence to her but the counsellor, made uneasy by the girls remarks, asked her not say such things. Moments later in the cabin the demons "assaulted" the girl. She said she thought she was in Hell and that the demons were pulling her skin off. She said they were laughing and telling her that they were going to do the same to her younger brother who was staying in another cabin in the boys' section of the camp. Well, there was both skepticism and horror in response to her claims. Myself, I am convinced that this was a genuine incident of demonic oppression. She was never entered by these demons and possessed, however. They just seemed to want one last "kick at the can".

    My grandfather, who has written a book on his experiences counselling those with demonic oppression or possesion, agrees with many of you who believe that christians cannot be possessed. His work as a revival evangelist over the last thirty years has given him plenty of opportunity to observe "fellowship with the fallen" among christians and the trouble it causes spiritually.

    [ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: aiki ]
     
  12. Wester

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    Well, if demon possession or even oppression exists, it is very close to a medical problem and it has not been accepted by the medical community. I know of a case, where a fundamentalist doctor had a tough case that he could not understand, among one of his young patients. When medical remedies did not help, he suggested to the parents that their child might be demon possessed. The parents did not consider that a reasonable explanation and they complained to the local medical society. The end result was that the doctor very narrowly escaped being censored by his peers. Could be that he was just not a very good doctor and was not able to diagnose the problem. Certainly demon possession has no recognized role in modern medicine. I think that anyone who seriously suggests it will be considered somewhat kooky by well educated people.
     
  13. Brian

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wester:
    I think that anyone who seriously suggests it will be considered somewhat kooky by well educated people.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You are in the presence of many well educated people are members this board and thread. (Not including myself in that group)The biggest reason we see more mental illness than demon possesion is that there are a finite number of demons and an incredibly large population that isn't getting any smaller.

    One last point about highly educated people. They for the most part come from schools that neither know God nor teach His Word. They reject as possiblity fact found in scripture.
     
  14. Wester

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The biggest reason we see more mental illness than demon possesion is that there are a finite number of demons and an incredibly large population that isn't getting any smaller.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;


    Very interesting comment. I would be interested in your ideas about how demons are created and why there is only a limited number of them. It is an area that I have never studied very much.
     
  15. Helen

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    Malcolm Bowden and Dr. Robert Law have co-written a book on counselling from a biblical perspective entitled "Breakdowns are Good for You."
    http://www.mbowden.surf3.net/bibcoun1.htm


    Here is an excerpt from the section to do with the subject of this thread:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In Breakdowns are good for you we deal with the subject of demonic possession and influence (pp.
    179-182), proposing that this is not as prevalent as most Christians believe. It is possible that these highly
    charged occasions when a person is "delivered" or "exorcised" from demons may have a quite different
    cause.

    In 1957 Dr. William Sargant wrote Battle for the Mind (Heinemann) in which he described his work in
    dealing with members of the armed forces who had experienced a traumatic event that had affected them
    psychologically. He found that the best cure was to inject them with a hypnotic drug and tell them that
    they are reliving the event. They would go through all the emotions of "terror, alarm and excitement" as if
    they were experiencing it at that time, to the point of collapse. They would then stop the treatment, and the
    patient would be able to live a normal life. The whole process was called "abreaction" which is defined as
    "the removal of an emotional repression by facing it in a vivid form in imagination and reliving the
    original experience."

    [We would, incidentally, note that Sargant's main theme is to quite unjustifiably extrapolate this effect to
    explain dramatic Christian conversions. He examines Peter's speech at Pentecost, Paul's conversion on the
    Damascus Road and John Wesley's "technique" of manipulating the crowds to produce fear of hell and
    then their "conversion". Sargant's view of conversion experiences was totally demolished by Dr. Martyn
    Lloyd-Jones in his booklet Conversions: Psychological and Spiritual (IVF 1959). He shows the
    weaknesses in Sargant's arguments, his ignoring of contrary evidence and the forcing of events to fit his
    particular interpretation.]

    In our book, we have suggested on page 180, that when both the counsellor and counsellee accept that
    demonic possession may be the cause of the problem, then both will be mentally ready, and indeed fully
    expectant, for any sudden outpouring of demonic behaviour by the counsellee. This does not necessarily
    mean that demonic forces are at work, as secular counsellors may have been able to treat such cases
    without recourse to accepting that any demonic forces were involved.

    It is possible that where a counsellee has dabbled in the occult - Ouija boards, seances, etc. - that there
    may be some degree of demonic influence in their lives, but when this is absent, then there is no real
    reason to assume that they may be influenced by demonic forces.

    We would suggest that in a counselling situation, the counsellee may have serious feelings of guilt or other
    "skeletons in the cupboard" which they have hidden from the counsellor. However, when they are
    expecting a dramatic "deliverance" by a counsellor or are in any other situation of a highly emotional
    event or crisis, they may suddenly confront themselves with their past sins and only then allow it to all
    bubble to the surface; i.e. "deliverance" may be a form of "abreaction" effect.

    We would put this as one possible explanation of dramatic "demonic deliverances" that does not actually
    involve any demonic influences, but the surfacing of past events at a time of an emotional crisis in the
    counsellees life.

    We would also mention that in their book How to Counsel from Scripture, the Bobgans accept that
    demons can be cast out of people but specifically warned against the overuse of this approach by some,
    who label people as having demons of "fear", "depression", and other similar problems. They have had to
    counsel those who have been "delivered" from demons by other counsellees but have only found they
    soon return to the same situation. We would simply extend this warning of the Bobgans against too much
    "demonising" to apply to virtually all cases that are classed as due to demonic forces.

    We would therefore suggest that actual demonic possession and/or influence is far less likely to be the
    root of a counsellees problem that is usually accepted by Christian counsellors, and that the basic problem
    remains in the pride, attention-seeking, self-centredness and self-pity of the counsellee.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    In an essay regarding the biblical view of multiple personality disorders,
    http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/mpd.htm

    there is this interesting comment:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
    The Bible does speak of demons inhabiting people, but it does not support the notion that Christians can be demon possessed or controlled. It does say that all
    unbelievers are under Satan's rule (Ephesians 2:2-3). But, it also declares that God "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the
    kingdom of his dear Son (Colossians 1:13).

    The Bible says Christians can be tempted by Satan and his legions. But, inhabited? No! Controlled? No! God enables Christians to resist temptation and overcome
    sin. If Christians do follow after temptation, they are walking after the flesh and therefore do what will please the evil one. Nevertheless, the battle for the Christian is
    between the flesh and the spirit.

    Instead of presenting multiple personality disorder, the Bible shows that unbelievers are sinners with a sinful nature and that believers may temporarily revert to the
    ways of the old nature's sinfulness. Instead of many personalities, the Christian has two natures. The old nature has judicially been put to death and buried, but the
    flesh can make it sinfully operative. The new nature is the new life in Christ which comes from true conversion by the Holy Spirit.

    Paul rejoiced in this truth:

    "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of
    God, who loved me, and gave himself for me"
    (Galatians 2:20).

    The Bible gives Christians the necessary information and power for living an abundant life. Christ is sufficient to enable Christians to put off the old man and put on
    the new. Rather than instructing Christians to discover hidden alter personalities, the Bible tells believers:

    "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your
    mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness
    " (Ephesians 4:22-24). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    A link from that page,
    http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/warfare/demonp.htm

    also has a lot to say about the concept of Christians and demon-possession. In other words, the very devil himself may dance in front of our faces and shout Boo a lot, but each born again Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and Satan cannot enter.
     
  16. Aaron

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    RG

    Kurt Koch knows what he is talking about, and I found the writings of his which I have read to be quite solid and Biblically founded.

    There is no Scripture whatever that says a Christian cannot be demon-possessed. It is an arbitrary assumption steeped in superstition to say that one who has been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit cannot be possessed by the devil.

    Christians are fooling themselves if they think they can play with ouija boards or any other occultic charms and not throw the door wide open for possession.

    [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  17. ROBERTGUWAPO

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    Dear Aaron:

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttt Laaaaaaaasssssssssssssssttttttttt...there is someone, a Baptist, who shares my view.

    IMHO that there really is no Scripture that SPECIFICALLY claims that a Christian cannot be possessed. Most of those who don't believe in this phenomenon logically state that the Holy Spirit and an evil spirit cannot occupy the same space. Scripture says otherwise:

    1. SATAN CAN VISIT HEAVEN

    Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them."

    2. THE OLD TESTAMENT TEMPLE WAS THE SCENE OF DEMONIC WORSHIP (Ezekiel 8:14-18)

    According to books about the occult (of course, by Christian authors), the purpose of occult activities is always to summon demonic spirits. So, presumably, there were demons in the outer courtyard and the inner courtyard, because 1Cor10:19 says "...the things which Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons.

    3. THE OLD TESTAMENT TEMPLE AND OUR TEMPLES ARE COMPARTMENTALIZED

    IMHO that although disobedient Christians can be possessed, they cannot be possessed completely.

    The old temple had three compartments: the outer courtyard, inner courtyard, and the God's Holy Room. The occultic Jews only had access to the outer and inner court, lest they be ZAPPED by going inside the Holy of Holies.

    We Christians, it seems are also compartmentalized: BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT. Disobedient Christians can be invaded, but not 100% invaded, and they could not occupy the place the Holy Spirit is specifically residing.

    4. CHRISTIANS WHO PRACTICE UNBIBLICAL PRACTICES SEEM TO BE PRONE TO ATTACK

    Those who participate in Holy Laughter or Toronto Blessing worship services seem to be under the control of demonic spirits. The bible says that God is not the author of confusion. However, if you get the courage to visit and observe these kind of services, you will find people barking like dogs, squealing like pigs, rolling uncontrollably, running around like track stars, laughing uncontrollably, being unable to walk...yikes.

    IMHO that demonic possession is not only of the Exorcist movie variety. It could take many weird forms.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
    RG

    There is no Scripture whatever that says a Christian cannot be demon-possessed. It is an arbitrary assumption steeped in superstition to say that one who has been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit cannot be possessed by the devil.[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Aaron ]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    :rolleyes:
     
  18. Kathy

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    I'm no theological brainiac, but I just simply REFUSE to believe that a person who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit (i.e. A PROFESSING CHRISTIAN) can POSSIBLY be possessed of a demon/devil. You are implying that a demon/devil can overcome the Holy Spirit! Satan and His demons are NO MATCH for the Almighty God! Nope, I won't believe it.

    If a person dabbles in the occult and plays with ouija boards, then I would wonder about their salvation.

    Kathy
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
  19. Brian

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    I know that it isn't mentioned a lot about demons or devils or fallen angels who were cast out of heaven with satan but here are some scripture reffernces to check out.

    Rev 12:7-10 talks about war in heaven with the angels loyal to God and those who were with satan. Verse 9 clearly states that these angels were cast out with satan.

    I understand that satan still has access to God to be our accuser day and night but there is no implication that he is accuireing any more angels to follow him into hell.

    This is my basis for believing that there are only so many demons.
     
  20. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
    There is no Scripture whatever that says a Christian cannot be demon-possessed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Nor is there any single Scripture where a believer IS possessed. The Lord does not share living space in his temple; even unholy priests could not enter the holy of holies: will God let a demon enter?
     

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