can a goat become a sheep?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by massdak, Jan 25, 2004.

  1. massdak

    massdak
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    does scripture more so support that sheep are the elect and the saved?

    i see no example of a goat becoming a sheep

    is Christ saying here that he gave His life for the sheep only?

    Jhn 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    is this bad news for the arminian view ?
     
  2. Helen

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    Biologically, goats and sheep are essentially the same animal. And, aside from that, if Christ can take a person like me and transform me from what I was into what I am becoming, then goat to sheep is no big deal at all!
     
  3. massdak

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    well biologically humans are also the same as humans and that makes sence for the biblical analogy, so the main difference is this&gt;&gt;&gt;Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    now helen i do hate to keep asking you to answer question with either a yes or no but i cannot resist. Do you believe the verse above excludes goats? yes or no?
     
  4. Johnv

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    Massdak, me thinks thou takest a biblical analogy literally.

    Forget calvinism and arminianism. Those are just labels that divide and compartmentalize. Jesus saves. Jesus gave his life for anyone who follows him.
     
  5. massdak

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    john v our doctrine is miles apart. the bible clearly gives the gospel as faith in Christ by His grace is the salvation for Christians, not mere following of a jesus made up in ones mind. Jesus saves sinners and they are those who have been drawn. this is clear. i still see no example of goats being converted .
     
  6. Johnv

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    If we have no say whatsoever in salvation, then the great commission is moot, and we should just accept the lost as being lost, without any attempt to get them out of their lost state. If however, the gift of salvation is free, we must still endeavor to accept the gift.
     
  7. AllOfGrace

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    Massdak,

    Let's take this even a step further.

    In the same chapter that Christ says He gives Himself for His sheep —

    John 10:11
    "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."
    John 10:15
    "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

    The Savior also clearly states that not everybody is a sheep.

    John 10:26-28
    "But ye believe not, because YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, as I said unto you.
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

    This isn't - because you don't believe you aren't my sheep.
    This isn't - you don't believe SO you are not my sheep.
    It is - You do not believe BECAUSE you are not one of my sheep.

    Friends, our Savior fully accomplished all He came for. He paid the sins of every one of God's elect and not a bit more. That is why Isaiah 53 says "He shall see the travail of His soul and be satisfied." How would He be satisfied if some for whom He died do not believe?
     
  8. AllOfGrace

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    JohnV,

    I would like to talk about something you said.

    "If we have no say whatsoever in salvation, then the great commission is moot, and we should just accept the lost as being lost, without any attempt to get them out of their lost state. If however, the gift of salvation is free, we must still endeavor to accept the gift."

    Actually, understanding election does not kill evangelism — it is our only basis for it. We fulfill this commission because it is our duty. More importantly, though, we fulfill it because, through election, we understand there will be success.

    Let me give an example. Christ likened witnessing as "being fishers of men." My belief in election does not stop me from fishing, it only lets me know I'm fishing in a stocked pond! [​IMG]
     
  9. massdak

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    when the gospel message is given it is to go out to every creature, that is sheep and goats, calvinism is not fatalism. obedience to do Gods will is not determined by what we regard as success or not. did not paul preach to many that did not believe? God sent paul to preach to kings and obviously many were not converted. man has responsibility to accept the gospel message and will be held accountable for his own sin if he rejects Christ. it is a paradox that is far above our understanding, that man is unwilling to do anything or believing anything to do with God unless God prepares his heart. do you believe a persons heart needs Gods intervention to believe?
     
  10. massdak

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    fishing in a stocked pond, that is a great analogy
     
  11. Yelsew

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    Well now, lets see about the sheep and goats.
    It is only during this natural life that one changes from goat to sheep...unbeliever to believer.

    John 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    John 3:18 Believers are not judged, unbelievers are judged.

    Revelation 19:15. From his mouth came a sharp sword with which to strike the unbelievers; he is the one who will rule them with an iron sceptre, and tread out the wine of Almighty God's fierce retribution.

    Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and the One who was sitting on it. In his presence, earth and sky vanished, leaving no trace. 12. I saw the dead, great and small alike, standing in front of his throne while the books lay open. And another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, as their deeds deserved. 13. The sea gave up all the dead who were in it; 14. Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them; and every one was judged as his deeds deserved. Then Death and Hades were hurled into the burning lake. This burning lake is the second death; 15. and anybody whose name could not be found written in the book of life was hurled into the burning lake.

    Coming to belief in God, especially in God the son, sanctifies; that is, it marks one for separation as a sheep from the goats. But while one remains in this natural life, one must co-mingle as sheep with goats. It is only after this natural life that one is truly separated a sheep from the goats.
     
  12. massdak

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    yelsew read the bible again and tell me if Jesus laid down his life for any goats, please let me know the chapter and verse.
     
  13. Johnv

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    The great commission says to preach the Gospel to all the world, not just to certain fish. This is actually contrary to the great commission, not compelentary to it.

    Additionally, the flaw in that view is that it implies that some who are elect may not be "caught" if someone isn't fishing. So is a person who isn't saved because they didn't hear the gospel elect or not?
     
  14. Yelsew

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    Are goats in the world?

    Do goats sin?

    Jesus laid down his life to atone for the sins of the world! Since goats sin and are in the world, Jesus laid down his life to atone for their sins too!

    However, since goats are only goats when they die from the flesh, every goat is given at least the same grace that every sheep is given in which to change from being a goat into being a sheep! Being transformed from unbeliever to believer.
     
  15. Frogman

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    From my understanding, we each possess the nature of a goat.

    The 'pond' or lake of our 'fishing' is set eternally by God.

    Note the following:

    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6)

    There is no way anyone of the elect can fail to come...unless of course God is able to fail, if so, then we are all lost.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  16. humbleherc

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  17. humbleherc

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    My old hardshell preacher said if you go down in baptism a goat you will come up one.


     
  18. Yelsew2

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    The sheep and goats is mere allegory, and are representative of the fact that of the animals of close famililial relationship there are goats and sheep. In humans they are called "unbelievers" and "believers" respectively.

    So, the issue is the separation of believers and unbelievers. Believers are not judged, unbelievers are. Believers are not condemned, unbelievers are condemned by their unbelief. (not by their sins).
     
  19. humbleherc

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    Sound like to me you got it all figured out there fellow.I know one thing some people know more than a horse and he's got the longest head.


     
  20. Yelsew2

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    </font>[/QUOTE]That's one I haven't heard before. But an elephant has the largest head so the elephant should know the most...right?
     

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