can a 'left behind' be saved?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by richard n koustas, Dec 30, 2004.

  1. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    I think not.

    All living believers (whether Jew or Gentile) will be raptured. Not a single believer will be left. The 'left behind' will only nonbelievers, those that have rejected Christ (including many Jews).

    I don't think that the tribulation period will begin right away. I personally believe that God will not offer a second chance to those who rejected Christ.

    Just like the Israelites wandered in the wilderness until the generation died off , I think
    that is entirely possible that God will permit the generation `left behind' to die off (maybe another 40 year period between the rapture and the beginning of the 7-year tribulation) and a small remnant of new Jewish converts (like Joshua and Caleb) will emerge at the end of the 40 years. The 'seed' of Abraham will look at 'whom they have pierced', confess their sin (of rejecting Him) and 'all Israel will be saved'

    BTW, I am a pre-trib disponsationalist, in case you could not figure that out...


    Redeemed
     
  2. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    I think you are probably right about the length of time between the rapture and the second coming, there is no reason that it should be limited to only the last 7 years. But I don't see any reason in scripture to believe that those left behind cannot be saved. I also don't think you could show a scriptural proof for your first statement that all believers will be taken in the first pre-trib rapture.
     
  3. APuritanMindset

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    I agree. If there is a pre-trib rapture, which I am beginning to question that idea a WHOLE lot, the way I've always heard it explained is that the Holy Spirit is not going to be present in this time. That being the case, how can anyone POSSIBLY be saved?
     
  4. servant-96

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    Of course they can be saved. In fact, there will be a lot that gets saved(Rev. 9-14). The first resurrection begins with Christ and many Old Testament Saints(Mt.27:52,53), then the rapture of the church(1Cor.15, 1Thess. 4) then the two witness and Trib. Saints(Rev.7; 11:12). This is the 1st resurrection is it's whole. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the 1st resurrection, for the second death hath no part"(Rev.20:5,6).
     
  5. Johnv

    Johnv
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    Why not? What if you get saved after the rapture? Then you will be saved. You won't be raptured, but you will be saved. Two different things.
     
  6. OldRegular

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    The question is moot since no one will be left behind! :D
     
  7. blackbird

    blackbird
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    OldRegular!! What you talkin' 'bout, Bro????
     
  8. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia
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    Aye Yeay yeay... oy veh! You tell him Blackbird.
     
  9. Archeryaddict

    Archeryaddict
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    Revelation 20: 4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    yes many will come to Christ after the Pre tribulation Rapture.
     
  10. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    Archeryaddict & servant96

    These are the souls that came through the tribulation, no? There will be many saved during the tribulation. I'm proposing that there will be a long period of time after the rapture before the tribulation where no one will be save. There is no biblical reference for this, i just don't know why God would offer a second chance to people that reject His Son (there is no second chance after death...).

    Johnv:

    If there are no believers on the planet, there will be no one left to preach, evangelize, disciple, etc. everyone left will be perplexed! where will they turn? to churches? any church leaders left behind will be clueless. They are going to start from scratch.

    I believe that the Jewish nation will be the first to relize that they missed out on something. They will be one step ahead of everyone else because they already have 3/4 of the Bible. It will be only a matter of time, and they before they realize that the Jesus they rejected was the messiah and begin the biggest evangelist movement ever...
     
  11. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    No.

    The Church will meet Christ in the air as He returns to the earth for judgment. (I don't believe in science fiction stories about the Hal Lindsey rapture).

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
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    :rolleyes: As I understand prophecy there will be 12,000 of each tribe of the nation of Israel that God will call out and protect during the 7 year tribulation....and they will bear witness to the unbelieving world of the redemption that is in Christ.I do believe that it would be possible for many to come to Christ during the tribulation but in all likelyhood they will pay for their faith with their lives.The temporary rule of anti-christ will most definitely be wicked...and brutal.

    Greg Sr. [​IMG]
    It's late and I gotta go to bed or I'd take more time and dig out the scriptures I know I've seen that support that.If someone wants to list'em that would be fine.Time for [​IMG]
     
  13. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    :rolleyes: Craig...I don't know about you but I'll be attending the Judgement Seat of Christ and then the Marriage Supper of the Lamb during the tribulation AFTER the Rapture.Hope to see ya there pal. [​IMG] :D :rolleyes:

    Bro.Greg [​IMG]
     
  14. Archeryaddict

    Archeryaddict
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    ((((((AMEN To That!))))))
     
  15. Johnv

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    Perhaps not. There are a lot of people who are "on the fence", who are heading towards believing, but have not as yet made a commitment to Christ. If all believers were to disappear right now, the Holy Spirit and Scripture would still be here.
     
  16. Archeryaddict

    Archeryaddict
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    1. What does God want?

    Malachi 3:6a For I [am] the LORD, I change not

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    God is not an ever-changing God. He is now as He was and as He will be. It is His desire that all men come to salvation. These verses prove that His purpose is to redeem the lost. We can trust that does not change because of the rapture, but, rather, the rapture is because of that purpose.


    2. Can people repent during the Tribulation?

    Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

    Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

    Revelation 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

    From these passages, we can see that mankind will be given the opportunity to repent during the Tribulation. These are but a few of the references found in Revelation that show repentance and the lack thereof during the Tribulation period. Therefore, we can be confidant that God's offer of salvation and forgiveness will still be available.


    3. Who are the Tribulation Saints?

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Revelation 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    The people who repent and turn to God during the Tribulation are called the Tribulation Saints. First we see that they are a multitude from all nations, of all peoples and tongues. Therefore the Tribulation saints will not be limited to only the Jews or the 144,000. In addition, they will come out of the Great Tribulation, therefore they can not be the Old Testament saints or the Church. It is simply logical to believe that "the multitude that no man can number" are the people who turned to the Lord during the Tribulation."


    4. What is the purpose of the two witnesses?

    Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    The purpose of the two witnesses is to preach the gospel to all the world during the Tribulation. The fact that the Lord has seen fit to send these two men to accomplish this further clarifies that there is the opportunity for repentance and salvation during the Tribulation.


    5. Is there a point of no return?

    Revelation 13:16-17 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    Revelation 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    During the Tribulation, all people will be faced with a destiny-sealing choice. This is what is referred to as the "mark of the beast". Scripture indicates that it is tied to the economy, as no man will be able to buy or sell unless he accepts this mark. Additionally we can see that the mark represents the worship of the Antichrist and the acceptance of his reign on earth. Much speculation abounds about what this mark will be--ranging from a tattoo to a computer chip--but truth be told, until it is instituted, no one will know for sure what it will be. What is important to note here is that the acceptance of the mark will be a willful action and direct rejection of the Lord. The wrath of God will be poured out on those who accept this mark. This passage indicates that it will be hell on earth for those who accept this mark.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    This passage states that the Tribulation Saints who will be martyred for proclaiming the name of Christ will live and reign throughout the millennium. It also states that those who have taken the mark will not be a part of this group--their fate is determined as well. The distinction that the Lord is making here is that the mark will be a defining moment--the point of no return. Once this decision is made, fate is sealed for eternity.


    6. Who will populate the Millennium?

    Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    At the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns to set up His millennial reign, the earth will be populated by those who believe in Him and survived the Tribulation.


    7. Who is the restrainer?

    2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    This scripture shows that the Antichrist cannot rise to power or be revealed until the restrainer is taken out of the way. One prevalent theory holds that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer that will be taken away, thereby making salvation impossible. However, reading from the book of Joel, that theory is not acceptable.

    Joel 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

    Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

    This passage shows us not that only will the Holy Spirit remain on the earth, but also that the Lord is now and will be willing then to forgive those who repent. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent and will remain with the believers throughout the Tribulation. Without His influence, no one would be able to be saved! The restrainer referred to by Paul in this letter to the Thessalonians is the workings of the Holy Spirit in the church.


    8. What about the great delusion?

    2Thessalonians 2:9-12 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Wow! Now there's some scary stuff. Paul is saying here that the Lord will send a great delusion to those who rejected His truth so that they will believe the lies of the Antichrist. Will those whose hearts are hardened to the message of salvation today still be hardened to it tomorrow? Romans 1:28 tells us that God is patient but He has his limits--He will turn over a stubborn person to a debased mind.

    The big question here is, what truth did they receive? In other words, what did they know?

    Let's take a look at five distinct representatives of society.

    Case 1: This is an Orthodox Jew with an MBA from Yeshiva University (Jewish College). He knows all about Jesus, but from a historical perspective. He believes that Jesus was just a man that the Gentiles elevated to God status. Out of the blue, I asked him one day what he would think if the Messiah came and it turns out to have been Jesus all along. His response? "If he shows up with holes in his hands, I'm not buying it."

    Case 2: This is a devout Muslim. He knows about Jesus, as Islam teaches that Jesus was one in a line of great prophets. Islam also teaches that Jesus (not Mohammed) will return at the end-of-days and gather the faithful to Allah. He also believes that Jesus was not God but, rather, just a man.

    Case 3: This person knows the story as well. She is a scientist and rejects the need for God in her life. She can see the benefit for others, just not for herself.

    Case 4: A former co-worker of mine is a self-proclaimed Druid. He outwardly rejects the notion of God altogether. He says he wants nothing to do with a God that will allow bad things to happen. Case closed; end of discussion. When his wife went into the hospital for surgery, he was asked “priest or rabbi” by the admitting nurse. He told her to, "bring me a bush to hug".

    Case 5: This is the “all paths to God” person. This person believes that, just as the Lord confused the tongues at the tower of Babel, He also sent different messengers to different people at different times. Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammed are all a part of the Godhead as well as the coming Jewish Messiah, whose role it will be to wrap it all up into a nice neat little package. Two years ago, this described me. Sadly, this is also the fastest growing “religion” on the planet today, and is sweeping college campuses like a storm under the name Baha'i.

    Assuming these cases are symbolic of the prevalent mentalities in the world today, and representative of people who do not come to repentance prior to the Tribulation, are they all damned? That sure is a lot of people now, isn't it?

    No one knows what God's litmus test is regarding the “what did you really know about the gospel” question. During the Tribulation, He will send a deluding influence which will allow people to be tricked, but only if their hearts are hardened to the truth.
     
  17. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
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    These folks sound like the perfect followers for antichrist.
     
  18. rjprince

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    ArchAdd,

    Great post! Just a few followup comments. Right on target with the identity of the restrainer! Saved only two year? Fantastic growth, keep it up!

    Case 1 - Orthodox Jew - Zech 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem...

    He may say that now, but if he survives to see the Messiah, his response will be different! Rom 11:26 - And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    Yes, the words of 2Thess 2:10 and 12 do not tell us specifically what God’s litmus test will be, but I think it involves more than just a knowledge of the historical Jesus. When verse 10 says, “they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved”, I believe this is an indication that they have rejected a clear presentation of the gospel of salvation by faith in the Lord Jesus. The words of verse 12 seems to give us the motivation for their rejection – “believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

    These are sent “judicial blindness” for having turned from the truth. No, we do not know where to draw the line with certainty, but there seems to be a certain indication that anyone who rejected a clear presentation of the gospel message will not be saved during the Trib. Because of their earlier rejection, they will not have the opportunity to respond to the gospel message during the Trib. God will harden their hearts for their earlier rejection.
     
  19. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    Gregory Perry Sr. :

    These are ones that will come through the tribulation. there will definitely be many that are saved during the tribulation, led by the Jews. I believe that there will be a pre trib rapture and i believe in the 7 year trib following...I don't think that the tribulation will follow on the heals of the rapture.

    Johnv:

    it is true that the HS and the scripture will remain, but i question whether people will be turning to them. i remember watching a special on PBS "where was God on 9/11". It was a series of interviews with people that lost their faith because of 9/11. i'd really like to see what pbs will run a year after the rapture: "where was God on ____(fill in the date of the rapture)?"!

    archeryaddict:

    Interesting post, but, again, i'm not questioning whether there will believers coming out of the tribulation, that will be saved during the tributlation. Will God offer a second chance to those that reject Christ (before the rapture).

    And I'll be participating in the marraige of the Lamb...and i'm looking forward to seeing you all theere!!!!!
     
  20. izzaksdad

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    Archadd,

    It is amazing that you are a relatively new believer- you have a firm grasp of proper interpretation of Scripture. I would like to know who your Pastor/mentor/discipler is. They are doing a great job.

    Tell me more about the Holy Spirit remaining on earth after the rapture. Very intriguing thought. I have been of the persuasion that the Holy Spirit is removed with the chruch at the rapture- hence there is no restraint of evil during the tribulation, therefore unseen pain, suffering, and devilish deeds are witnessed.

    Give me some more info. on your thoughts about this theological stance. Any reference books, authors would be appreciated.

    Izaaksdad
     

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