Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by charles_creech78, Jul 9, 2007.
:jesus: What is your thought on this.
If by your question you mean, "Can the new life in Christ, once given, ever be taken away," I would say it is not possible, in view of passages like 1 Peter 1.3-5:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
If a person has been "begotten again" by God Himself, to an inheritance which is incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, and if indeed such a person is "kept by the power of God through faith for salvation," that new life is certain and eternal.
Speaking to some Pharisees in John 10.26-30, Jesus said:
26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30 "I and My Father are one."
Phrases like "eternal life", "never perish" and "no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand" seem to be quite clear.
But I do realise I may not have understood the question in the way you meant it.
RE: Can a CHRISTian sin a sin unto death?
I would say "no" to this question. I am not saying we won't ever be tempted, Jesus Himself was, but God will not allow things to be put on us more than we can bear. I believe that once we are forgiven of ALL of our sins, He will come into our lives and help us do the things He wants us to. Like I said, we WILL stumble, but NEVER fall. I have total belief in Him, and Him alone. He is my Shield, my Faith, my Eveything....in Him I trust!
One must first define that phrase before one may answer such a question.
In the context in which that phrase is given, however, it appears that John seems to think it is possible.
What is he talking about when he says a "sin unto death". It's kind of hard to answer the question without establishing this.
1. What sin(s) is he talking about? Give an example.
2. What does "unto death" mean? Physical death? Spiritual death (again)?
If physical death...yes. My sister (a believer) suffered this very fate.
This is my thought on this . 1 John Chapter 3 vers. 1 Behold what manner of love the Father hath betowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. vers.2 beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear,we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. vers.3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. vers.4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth the law:for sin is the trangression of the law. vers.5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins;and in him is no sin. vers.6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, nether known him. vers.7 Little children, let no man deceive you:he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. vers.8 He that committeth sin is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. vers. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of GOD.
It is "my opinion" that there were some folks in the church at Corinth that did exactly that. There were also two people in Acts 5 that did so.
Once again, this is "my opinion" but I guess you have to define the word "death" to mean physical death to take this position.
There is a Biblical example to the "sin unto death" theology/truth
Observe 1John 5:16
The OP's thought lies on the last sentence of the verse
"There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."
Question is----what IS this sin unto death??
Can a believer "sin a sin" that is so grievious to God that the only remedy God has is to bring that believer "home" ahead of his/her time??
And WHAT sin is it that a person has to commit-in order for the "sin unto death" to apply
One episode comes to mind from the book of 1Corinthians chapter 11
Evidently---there were some believers there who were abusing the Lord's Table---apparently obnoxiously overruly to the point where something had to be done about it---and something WAS done about it
Look at verse 30
"For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep"
Paul was saying that some of the believers were already in the grave---dead---because of the abusiive sin going on in the church.
We can only use this verse as an example of what NOT to do at the Lord's table
Other examples are in the Bible
Thank about it for a minute. You are already going to die. So what death am I talking about.
We can only go by what John said.
There is a sin unto death.
What is that sin ? On that we can simply speculate.
Whatever it is, though, is not something God is surprised at when somebody commits it that His only recourse is to bring that believer or child home.
It is something that God knows is going to happen, and the death that occurs is that sin's consequence, not God's doing.
The answer is an early death or an untimely death, a death that doesn't have to happen such as those recorded in 1Cor.11:30 that happened because of the abuse of the Lord's Table.
1 John 5:16-17 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
These verses are addressed to believers. "If any man see his brother".
It is better if a believer who is bringing shame to the name of Christ be taken out of this world before more damage is done to the name of Christ, then he live, and face even greater loss of reward and/or judgement at the JSOC.
This is a difficult passage of Scripture. Rome interprets it as mortal and venial sinning. This is however an anachronistic fallacy.
Some commentators have sought to retranslate several expressions: 1. Sin a sin (v.16) would be "Sinning a sin," which would be in the act of sinning.
2. A sin unto death, would be "sin unto death," which would not be a single sin but acts of sins, characterizing a lifestyle of sin.
Some understand the passage to be referring to physical death as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira. Others see it as referring to spiritual death.
If you are committed to the preservation of the souls of true believers, then it would not be spiritual death.
At any rate, John says that whether it is a sin unto death or a sin not unto death, "all unrighteousness is sin."
The key word to this is after being born again.
This is how I see it, too. They were disrespectful of the Lord's supper and paid the consequences in physical terms (sickness and death). But I can't say for sure, and I wanted to see what others thought.
TKhis is also my understandng of that passage. I see the deaths of Ananias and Saphira as examples.
One OT example comes to mind. Moses. His punishment for striking the rock instead of speakng to it was death before entering the Promised Land.
How many of the children of Israel died in the wilderness because they refused to listen to Joshua and Caleb? Would that be an example?
Huh? That's God's doing. They didn't die of natural causes because they lied.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. It was definitely God's doing.
To me it is saying how impossible it is for the Children of God to commit such sins as adultery, murder, etc. I know before I post the reaction I will get, so fire away. Christians have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the mind of Christ, how can he decide to have a go at his neighbor's wife for they would have to go with him.
The wages of sin is death.
Anytime one sins, and continues in sin, the end result is death, whether the sinner is a child of God or not.
I believe this is one of God's rules, not that He deliberately causes the death of the sinner (physical or spiritual) but because He himself declared that the result of sin is death.
To Adam, he said: On the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.
In another part of the Bible, it says: The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
If God was the direct cause of Ananaias and Saphira's death, for example, then every man who sins would by now be dead.
Yet the Bible does not record Peter as stating :Behold, God slays thee.
They sinned against God, and indeed, any man who sins does so first against God, then against his fellow.