Can a man sin a sin unto death after being born again.

People who state opinon without Scriptura basis should remain on the sidelines. I am not interested in opinion. What saith the Lord? What does God say on this matter?

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

"There was given to me (by God) a thorn in the flesh....lest I should be exalted above measure. Look at just the context of this one verse. If this came directly from Satan he would be defeating himself. One thing that Satan loves to do is to make people proud. Pride is sin. He loves to see people puffed up and proud.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
--Satan loves to destroy people through their pride.
But this wasn't the case with Paul. God gave him a thorn in the flesh in order to prevent him from being proud. That is not Satan's method. The messenger of Satan was an attack on his body just as it was with Job. Paul had an eye affliction. It affected his appearance. But mostly it affected his ability to read and write, so that he did most everything through an amanuensis. If you look in Galatians we read:

Galatians 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
--The large letter does not refer to the length of the epistle obviously, but rather to the large letters he used. He wrote this epistle himself. He had to use very large letters because of his poor eyesight. It is one of the only letters that he wrote without an amanuensis.
The affliction kept Paul humble, as God said it would. It is called a thorn in the flesh, no doubt because it was something that afflicted his flesh. But it kept him humble. It certainly wasn't sin. God forbid that one should attribute sin to our Lord.

What on earth does this answer have to do with my statement "It is blasphemous to attribute sin unto God." Not one Scripture you posted attributes sin unto God. Your post does't make any sense. The verses that you quote only emphasize that there is a consequence for sin. Do you still want to maintain a position that you can attribute sin unto God. The Bible teaches that man sins, and then man pays the consequence for the sin he has committed.

This is your answer to my statement: "Either you are born again or you are not.
What are you talking about. These verses speak about the resurrection. We wait for the redemption of our body, which will happen at the rapture or the resurrection. That is when our bodies will be perfected and our ailments will disappear--not in this life, but when the rapture occurs--at the resurrection.
--Verse 23 speaks of the entire creation which awaits that general time also. It awaits the second coming of Christ, the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom when this entire world will be rejuvenated.
Now what has that got to do with being born again?

 

2Cr 12:7¶And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.__________________

You are the one guilty of stating an opinion and then put it where everyone can see:

So why not the sideline?

Now what really does the scripture say;

I ask you sir, is God the messenger of Satan? jeepers DHK;

Apostle Paul had a desire to be perfect now, and not be always in a warfare, between the Spirit and the Flesh. (context)

Kept Paul a praying man and keeps you and I praying men. (context)

BBob; You stated the "whole" man is born again and if that were true, there would be no natural death to the flesh. You see the word "also", that means that a part of you was born again and the creature, or flesh shall be delivered also from the bondage of corruption.

BBob; It is in response to what you posted below that there were no difference in sin. Well, scripture says there is a difference and I will take the scripture over your opinion anytime.

DHK;

Not according to scripture.

You said you were once Catholic or in some way affilated with them. I think you are trying so hard to get away from them, that you go to far. The Catholics did quote some things right, such as "Jesus is the Christ".

 

Brother Bob, first off, you are entirely correct about the Roman Catholic(s) Church. They did and do, in fact, get some things right, just as do most other 'branches' of what is considered "Christian". They also get some things wrong, j ust as I assume you or I (and anyone else) do, as well. It is not 'scorekeeping' in this.
We should all remember this and not always "throw out the baby with the bath water", definitely. A point is not necessarily "in error" just because someone, say a Roman Catholic (since they are the ones you mentioned) says it, and the same thing be "right" just because a Baptist says it. But that isn't why I called, tonight!

How about II Cor. 12:7 in some context, like from say, II Cor. 12:1-10, the immediate context of the verse about "the thorn in the flesh".

How about perhaps the "thorn in the flesh" WAS "the messenger of Satan", which God 'allowed' a la Job, just maybe, and was for the purpose of keeping Paul humble. This is what the Scripture seems to be saying, as I read it.

I do wonder what both the post and my response, have to do with "Whether a Christian can sin a sin unto death"

Ed now heads back to the sideline!

Ed

 

I agree Ed;.....

except who gave him the desire to boast, and if he did boast would it be sin?

 

I went to the end of the the thead and didn't read most of the answers.

The same John in the same epistle spoke (being moved by the Spirit) about the Law. "Sin is the transgression of the Law". There were several sins under the Law that required the death penalty (such as murder and other unspeakable things).

I believe John was presenting us with the question can a brother commit such a sin?
And if so should we pray for that brother, he doesn't give a definitive answer just "There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that". NKJV.

Personally, I would agree with those who are saying that such a sin for a believer would in all probability result in an untimely and perhaps a shameful death, one which would perhaps reveal that sin.

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols...​

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.​

HankD​

 

But this sin is an unforgiveable sin, a sin unto death. What you speak of is a sinner committing the act of murder, etc. This is talking about a man who is indwelt with the Holy Ghost and the mind of Christ, committing a sin unto death to which there is no forgiveness, why would an untimely death solve anything, he still would have the sin against him?

To kill her children and to kill a saved person is entirely two different things.​

I ask you, if a person did such a thing and the scripture says it is impossible for him to repent of it, so he will face judgement with a ​

unpardonable sin, which would result in the second death.​

For this man to die an untimely death as you say, to what benefit would it be to the man for he dying an early death would ​

not give him forgiveness. There is nothing that will give him forgiveness, if he commits such an act. So what would be the ​

purpose of the untimely death?

This scripture is just saying how impossible it is for a saved person to commit such an act.​

 

It's part of the Scripture I presented.

Please note that Jesus said this Jezebel was teaching "my servants to commit fornication (porneia - a host of different sins of a certain type).​

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Also since it is apparent that the church leadership was not taking disciplinary action ("Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel), God Himself threatens to remove her followers from the Church by killing them.​

HankD​

​

​

 

Can a man sin a sin unto death after being born again?​

Rev 2:22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.​

The sin we are talking about there is no repentance.

There were many among them in the transition from the Law to the Grace covenant, who were not really Christians but had come in unawares, to seek out their liberty. Not saying these were not saved but if they were it was not a sin unto death for they could "repent' according to scripture. The sin unto death in Heb. 6:4 could not "repent". All the seven churches in Asia were having troubles, some forgot their first love, others said they could make it on their own. Paul had a struggle setting up these churches in Asia.

 

Then what are you really talking about Bob? If it is something that you believe in, then it is:
1. Something that doesn't exist--except in your imagination.
2. A God so small that he is powerless to forgive sin.
3. A God who lied and did not pay the full penalty of all our sins on the cross.

If there are sins for which there are no repentance which of the above (and there may be more than one), do you believe in? I don't believe in those things. My God is great!!! He forgives all those that come to Him, and He forgives unconditionally. On the cross he paid the penalty with his blood, for the penalty of my sin--all my sin: the past, the present, and the future. It is all put under the blood.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus--none.

 

Brother Bob, I don't see anywhere in 1 John where there is no repentance for the "sin unto death".

I realize that this is an area of Scripture where opinions abound.

So, I have presented my take, others have given theirs.

God bless you.

HankD

 

Then God says one thing and you say another. God say if a person commits this sin to "renew" him again unto repentance is impossible. God can forgive who He wants and He also can say who He will not forgive as He did in this case, I don't care if they have an early death or cry their eyes out, God says "it is impossible to renew them unto repentance"..

Your are denying scripture DHK;.

Hebr. 6:4
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

What is hard about seeing that God said it is impossible to "renew" such a one to repentance. It does not matter if this person has an early death or what, to "renew" such a one unto repentance is impossible, and Jesus said not to even pray for him. Surely you can see that.

Hebr. 6:4
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

HankD do have a point, here! :thumbs:

Ed

 

Regardless of what one may believe about the interpretation of Heb. 6:4-6 (no doubt your favorite Bible verses, considering how many times I've seen you post them) , HankD did say that I John and the sin unto death said nothing about anything being said that one could not repent from it. (I ain't getting into 'repent of sin' at this time, so all can relax! :laugh

But Heb. 6:4-6 is not the same passage as I John 5: 16-17 in anybody's book. And as has been stated several times before, including by me, what exactly is "a sin unto death" (or perhaps better rendered as a 'sin that leads to death') is not specifically stated, either here or elsewhere in Scripture, only that "there is a sin unto death." Why does this undefined "sin unto death" even have to be the same sin for every individual?? Scripture never says that it does, anywhere that I can find.

I would agree that in the case of Ananias and Saphirra, that "lying unto the Holy Spirit" was such a sin, given the consequences. (BTW, you might note that Peter did not tell Saphirra that Ananias was dead, at first. - "Oh yeah! BTW, your husband is already dead and buried, and you're a-fixin' to follow him into the ground, right now. Your pallbearers are here and waiting, already." "Thud!!") And you might note that their deaths served to 'scare the fuzz' out of the church, as well as those who were not part of the church, and by causing those to hear what was preached and then miracles worked by the apostles, after that, and also led to great revival.

I would agree that the Corinthian believers who partook of the Lord's table unworthily, with this ensuing judgment that "many sleep" probably had committed "a sin unto death", as well, for this is what Scripture specifically says in so many words, or at least that many were dead (sleep) because of this very reason. Beyond these two instances, I am leery of assigning a particular "sin unto death" to any other believer, either in the OT or in the NT, for the Bible simply does not give enough evidence for this, that I see. Or even attempting to guess what it may be or may have been.

But apparently that sin is/was not drunkenness (Noah);
not incest (Lot);
not prostitution (not Rahab nor Tamar, the latter of which added incest, to boot);
not lying to a king, as opposed to lying to the Holy Spirit (Abraham and Isaac);
not stealing (Jacob);
not adultery with murder tacked on for good measure (David);
not polygamy (Solomon - who could have given anyone else in history lesson on it!);
not whoremongering (Samson);
not denying the Lord (Peter);
not unbelief in the testimony of ten apostles about resurrection of the Lord, unless he could 'thrust his hand into the Lord's side' (Thomas);
not even being "the chief of sinners" (Paul).

You know, seeing as how none of these died over any of this, you understand.

Given these instances, I am just not willing to attempt to even hazard a guess as to what it might be, but will wait for that to be revealed to me at the coming of the Lord!

Ed

 

Ed;
Hebr. 6:4
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This scripture stands all by itself in saying there is no repentance for this sin. Is it a sin unto death, who knows, but this scripture says "it is impossible to renew him unto repentance", regardless of what you do, die and early death is not going to remove the sin, according to this scripture. I am not talking about John 5 16: 17:.

I am only talking about a person who did what this scripture says: once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away

This scripture (context), you don't have to run all over the Bible, explain this scripture. I am not talking here about a "sin unto death", but I am talking about this scripture.

I truly believe this scripture was put in the Bible to show us how impossible it is for a person who has the Holy Ghost, to partake of deadly sins again.

Now this scripture says it is impossible to renew someone who committed this act to repentance, therefore, no forgiveness.

 

Then why bring this Scripture into the thread?? The thread asked the question of whether or not a Christian could sin a sin unto death. And as far as I can find, only I John speaks of any sin unto death, specifically. No one that I know has said that Heb. 6:4-6 is not valid Scripture. Or that one could be renewed to repentance (whatever that means) having fallen away, with "having fallen away" being the accurate rendering of the Greek participial phrase, here.

But you are the one who brought Rev. 2 and 'Jezebel' into the discussion, as well as Heb. 6:4-6, among other things, including murder; adultery; stealing; 'thorn in the flesh'; 'sheep and goats' (I ain't yet got that one figured out. ); and football. Football????? ("sidelines!" - :laugh. And you did, in fact, attempt to put the two Scriptures together (I presume to attempt to prove a point), in more than one post, as well. {Sigh!} (#80; #84; #109)

So who is running all over the Bible to start with??

Not me! I'm just trying to catch up and keep up with you! :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

I don't think I brought Jezebel or this scripture into this thread. I think I just responded to someone else's post. I will have a look see.

HankD; brought Jezebel into this thread. Still looking.