Can a non-Calvinist explain the doctrine Irresistable Grace to me?

Does God have the right to choose one over another or not?All of us deserve the eternal wrath of God,correct?By His determinate counsel He selects those whom He will.He also reserves the right to harden those of His choice.

Yes,His elect were chosen before the foundation of the world as Ephesians 1:4,and 2 Thess.2:13 (among other passages) teaches.Of course it was done (His decision) before any of us were born.I don't know where you are getting your misinformation.Do you believe the Scriptures,or are you denying them?Do you agree with the Bible that long before the twins were born and had done anything good or bad -- God hated Esau and loved Jacob?

The Lord gives us the very faith to believe in Him.We do not make that eternal choice based on our "free-will".

 

Can a non-Calvanist explain the doctrine Irresistable Grace to me

Rippon: My statement was not nutty just short and to the point. Out of John Calvins TULIP, only one is scriptural, and he got that one right by sheer luck. Yes, God can do anything He wants to do. But, God wanted us to love Him by our own free will, He did not force us to love Him, He wants us to love Him, that is why I believe satan is around in the first place, when there is a party of three, someone has a choice don't they?

His elect were not chosen before the foundation of the world, the only one chosen before the foundation of the world was Jesus Christ, we were not around before the foundation of the world. Now the saved only become the "elect" when they choose to believe on Jesus Christ and place their faith on Him, before they are not elected for anything. No man is in Christ until he is born again. Read Gal 4:7-9 and Eph 2:1,3,12. Might I ask you a question since you think I'm nutty ok? If election is eternal, how were you sanctified in eternity when Eph 2:12-13 states that you were definately not sanctified. Look at 2 Tim 1:9 and Eph 1:4, God gives us some things but these things were "given us in Jesus Christ"; so, you have to be in Him first to get them right? What's nutty is to think that anyone could be in Christ before Gen. 1:1, wasn't that before the foundation of the world, were you around then? No; but who was? Christ was.

If you want scripture I can pull it up; but, I was trying to be short, concise and to the point. And what is nutty is when someone thinks they were here before the foundation of the world, or think they were elected before the foundation of the world, they weren't even a twinkle in their parents eye before the foundation of the world.
YSIC
Joyce

 

As a side question, have you read John Calvin?

btw, John Calvin wouldn't have a clue about the 5 points or what TULIP meant.

 

Can a non-Calvinist explain the doctrine

I have studied church history and know what John Calvin taught, I also belonged to another board at one time that was supposed to be a Baptist board but was swarming with Calvinists and Charismatics who loved to take the Word of God out of context and twist it to fit the doctrine they wanted to believe in, in otherwords, they wanted to read the Bible much in the way one eats a banana throwing out what they didn't want to digest and digesting what they wanted and they only listened to what their itching ears wanted to hear. Then when you would show them scripturally where they were wrong; you would get called a heretic, a liar and other names and they would bury you in scripture that they were using out of context to try and prove that their false doctrine was correct. I came to this board because I'm a Bible Believing Baptist who believes God's Word is truth and that the interpretation thereof, is of the HS and believe that I will find others that enjoy studying the Word of God as I do myself and are searching for truth. If I think I see a contradiciton of God's Word, I know I'm wrong, as there are none in God's Word. I believe in dispensationalism and rightly dividing the Word of God. I take the Word of God literally except when to do so would not make sense.
YSIC
Joyce

 

Whoa! "Out of the frying pan and into the fire," eh, Joyce?! :laugh:

I have to laugh because I used to frequent a "RaptureReady" board that was started by some pretib rapture folks but I finally got "banned" on account of all the postribbers there!! :laugh: Go figure!

You're right, of course. And I believe you will get a better hearing here. Lately there has been some acknowledgement (IMO) that something done by the sinner/unregenerate precedes regeneration. Some are beginning to see that reconciling with God (being "drawn") precedes our being "given" to Christ.

You have at least one ally, joyce! :thumbs: Please don't be discouraged.

The whole essence of your and my postings is Eph 4:13 -- "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" We're beyond Eph 4:3 -- the "unity of the Spirit" or the unity of salvation (although that is a huge assumption sometimes). But we (you and I) would love to have a meeting of the minds in Christ with those who are only "feeling" the tail of the elephant, no? :laugh:

skypair

 

Can a non-Calvinist explain the doctrine Irresistable Grace

Rippon: No I am just asking that you don't use scripture out of the context in which it is used and then you won't be confused ok? When the scripture talks about the elect chosen before the foundation of the world, the elect is Jesus Christ, He was the one chosen, Bible says so all over it. We become the elect in Him when we choose to believe in Him not before.

God has the right to do whatever He pleases are you going to stand in judgment of Him now? I wouldn't suggest that. He is to be revered, maybe that is the problem, He is Spirit and not a man, maybe someone should realize that. He is always right no matter what decision He makes He is right, and we are wrong, imagine that.

God hated Esau and loved Jacob was written "after" Esau and Jacob had lived out their lifes.

Man comes into this world believing in a superior being, he gets educated out of that belief by other men, claiming to know more than God, happens all the time.

And yes, we do make the eternal choice based on Free Will, not the eenie meenie miney mo that the Calvanists teach.

Yes I do believe my Bible, I also know how to rightly divide the Word of God and how not to take scripture out of context to make it say what I'd like for it to say, I allow the Bible to say what God wants me to hear. If I take scripture out of the context in which it is used I could make the Word of God say anything I want it to, I don't do that, and that is where people make their mistake. I may be new to this board, but I've been a Bible Believing Baptist for a good long time now and I enjoy the Word of God.
Have a nice day
YSIC
Joyce

 

Can a non-Calvanist explain the doctrine irresistable grace to me

jcJordan: Let me ask you something ok? Can you be in Christ before you or Christ shows up?
Facts: No man is in Christ until he is born again and every man is in Adam when Adam died and the elect are not in Christ see Gal 4:7-9, Eph 2:1,3 and 12 for that ok? Now let's go look at Matt 22:14, doesn't it appear that the call to Him precedes the election? And if someone was in Christ before the foundation of the world, which is different than "from the beginning", then they sure fell out of Christ and go into Adam pretty quickly in the second chapter of Genesis did they not? Now go to 2 Tim 1:9-10 and Eph 1:4-5 notice the similarities there? If you aren't in Christ, then you aren't elected, and you couldn't be in Christ back before Gen or even in Gen could you? Yes, God had foreknowledge, He knew man would mess up, He knew He would have to provide a way out for us sinners, and we all are, that way out is Jesus Christ, and that "election" occurs "after" you are in Christ and Christ is in you, not before. God already knows who will and who won't accept.

Next let's look at Esau and Jacob again ok? Don't you think He had foreknowledge of what Esau and Jacob would do? So; I suppose He chose according to foreknowledge perhaps, doesn't matter really, He chose and that's that, I don't question His reasons for I know He is right. Look at how God hardened Pharoahs' heart, do you think perhaps He did that to show us something too? Just because a person, having free will chooses to reject instead of accept, doesn't mean they were predistined to do so. God knows how they will choose based on foreknowledge, not that He chooses to send some to hell and some He doesn't. If it were up to Him, we'd all get saved and that is exactly what the Bible says, no one has to perish, and God doesn't send us to hell, we send ourselves by rejecting the plan of salvation that He has given to us because He loved us First and sent His Only Begotten Son so that whosoever, notice that word please ---- Whosoever----- doesn't that show free will?
YSIC
Joyce

 

I doubt the veracity of that statement.

I also belonged to another board at one time that was supposed to be a Baptist board but was swarming with Calvinists and Charismatics who loved to take the Word of God out of context and twist it to fit the doctrine they wanted to believe in,
[/quote]

So in your estimation Calvinists and Charismatic are equally distorters of Scripture?! Do think as a Ruckmanite that you may be blind to your own errors?


in otherwords, they wanted to read the Bible much in the way one eats a banana throwing out what they didn't want to digest and digesting what they wanted and they only listened to what their itching ears wanted to hear.
[/quote]

I fail to see how Calvinists have itching ears.Take for example our belief in the total depravity of humanity.Will crowds gather to that teaching as if it's flesh-pleasing?!


I came to this board because I'm a Bible Believing Baptist who believes God's Word is truth and that the interpretation thereof, is of the HS and believe that I will find others that enjoy studying the Word of God as I do myself and are searching for truth. If I think I see a contradiciton of God's Word, I know I'm wrong, as there are none in God's Word. I believe in dispensationalism and rightly dividing the Word of God. I take the Word of God literally except when to do so would not make sense.
YSIC
Joyce[/quote]

I hope you recognize that you have a lot more to learn and unlearn.

 

LOL! You claim that you honor God's Word,but you twist it this way and that to avoid plain biblical doctrines. When Ephesians 1:4 says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world -- doesn't that negate your stance?Doesn't predestination mean predetermined?We were predestinated before any of us had actual existence.

Do you believe the words of the KJV in Psalm 139:16 ? It goes like this :"Thine eyes did see my substance,yet being unperfect;and in thy book all my members were written,which in continuance were fashioned,when as yet there were none of them." In case you don't understand that archaic English here it is in TNIV-style:"your eyes saw my unformed body.All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

Christians have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Our names were written before the world was made.Do you acknowledge that?

_____________________________________________________________

God has the right to do whatever He pleases
[/quote]

I have quoted Psalm 115:3 many times on the BB.It's matched with 135:6;Job 23:13 and Daniel 4:35 among other places.I heartily agree.AMEN!!


are you going to stand in judgment of Him now? I wouldn't suggest that. He is to be revered, maybe that is the problem, He is Spirit and not a man, maybe someone should realize that. He is always right no matter what decision He makes He is right, and we are wrong, imagine that.
[/quote]

Where are you coming up with the notion that I am in opposition to God;that I am judging Him?!Cite specifics.Maybe you are confusing Joyce with God.I am against your unbiblical positions.

_____________________________________________________________



God hated Esau and loved Jacob was written "after" Esau and Jacob had lived out their lifes.
[/quote]

Have you read Romans 9 lately?Check out verse 11:"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad -- in order that God's purpose in election might stand."

____________________________________________________________

And yes, we do make the eternal choice based on Free Will, not the eenie meenie miney mo that the Calvanists teach.
[/quote]

Your eenie meenie miney mo line has been used too much.It's not a substitute for an accurate understanding of Scripture though.

A capricious God who does things willy-nilly is not the God that Calvinists (or any true Christian) adores.Stop your nonsense.

_____________________________________________________________

Yes I do believe my Bible, I also know how to rightly divide the Word of God and how not to take scripture out of context to make it say what I'd like for it to say, I allow the Bible to say what God wants me to hear. If I take scripture out of the context in which it is used I could make the Word of God say anything I want it to, I don't do that, and that is where people make their mistake. I may be new to this board, but I've been a Bible Believing Baptist for a good long time now and I enjoy the Word of God.
Have a nice day
YSIC
Joyce[/quote]

You seem very confident,but your stances negate your bold assertions.You have taken the Bible out of context numerous times.

I'm glad you enjoy the Word of God.But,make sure you actually believe what it teaches and not what Joyce says it does.

 

You have a lot of jumbled thoughts here.The elect are eternally elect.The elect don't come into the world as saved beings though. Don't confuse the differences.

Foreknowledge is not God's advance information.God has set His love on certain ones from before the foundation of the world.They are fore-loved.These people are the elect.

______________________________________________________________



Next let's look at Esau and Jacob again ok? Don't you think He had foreknowledge of what Esau and Jacob would do? So; I suppose He chose according to foreknowledge perhaps, doesn't matter really, He chose and that's that, I don't question His reasons for I know He is right.
[/quote]

Really,spend some time in Romans 9.

__________________________________________________________


Look at how God hardened Pharoahs' heart, do you think perhaps He did that to show us something too? Just because a person, having free will chooses to reject instead of accept, doesn't mean they were predistined to do so. God knows how they will choose based on foreknowledge, not that He chooses to send some to hell and some He doesn't. If it were up to Him, we'd all get saved and that is exactly what the Bible says, no one has to perish, and God doesn't send us to hell, we send ourselves by rejecting the plan of salvation that He has given to us because He loved us First and sent His Only Begotten Son so that whosoever, notice that word please ---- Whosoever----- doesn't that show free will?
YSIC
Joyce[/quote]

God knows how an elect one will choose because He cased them to choose Him.They couldn't do it on their own.

"If it were up to Him,we'd all get saved...". Isn't everything up to God?! His will is done -- period.His will is not frustrated.

Whosoever means = those who. Those who are the ones God gives eternal life to -- the elect ones.

Do you believe the Word of God when it says in Acts 13:48:"When the Gentiles heard this,they were glad and honored the word of the Lord;and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

The ones who become saved are the ones who are appointed or ordained for eternal life.Before the foundations of the world were laid He chose certain ones to be in Christ.Their faith was given to them as a result of their appointment to eternal life.It's not the other way around. IOW,God did not give someone life eternal because they believed.Instead,they believed because of their ordination to eternal life.

See 2 Thess. 2:13 and 2 Tim. 1:9 for more of the same.

 

Can a non-Calvinist explain the doctrine Irresistable Grace to me

Rippon: I guess you will just have to rip on me then; cause we are definately not in agreement on much, and although I do study and have all Dr. Ruckman's 6 foot shelf of books, I consider myself a Bible Believing Christian, and if that makes me a Ruckmanite, I guess I'm a Ruckmanite. I know what Calvanism is, I know people who are Calvanists that are friends of mine, I know ultra Calvanists that try and push their doctrine onto everyone else. While you are patting John Calvin on the back, go look up how he persecuted and had killed all people who wouldn't convert to Calvinism in England causing the people to flee to what is known as America today. You are taking the scripture out of the context in which it is used to say what someone has taught you, not what the Word says, I've tried to show you where you are in error and it is fruitless. Did you even bother to read the verses I showed you, they were put up there to show you where you were in error but I guess you just decided to cast them aside like a banana peel gets cast aside when one eats a banana right, eating the parts you like and discarding what you don't like. For if you would have read them you would find that the verses point out that "no one is elected until they are in Christ and Christ is in them". That does not happen until a person decides to accept Him now does it? Because if it happened before that time then a person would be able to become unsaved once they were saved, and that is not possible, God's Word shows that in many places.

I'm not confusing the issues, I'm stating the facts as the Bible has them, and listed the scriptures to prove it. Foreknowledge is not God's advance information? God is not a man, He is a Spirit and He knows what decision I will make before I make it, that is foreknowledge. He knew what Esau would do before Esau did it, also Jacob. He did not affect their decision to do it; but He knew. Maybe that is why He made the decision He did, maybe not; but, I do know I don't have the right to question Him do you? God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son into the world that whosoever believed in Him would be saved, that sound like something you might have heard before, or does your Bible say something like God so loved only certain people that He sent His only Begotten Son into the world to save only those certain people that He had elected to save? Give me a break here will ya. Free will, we have the choice to accept or reject Him, what do you think that word whosoever means?

Sorry, if my few thoughts are jumbling up your mind here, I thought I was making this rather simple.
Have a nice day
YSIC
Joyce

 

You may know what "Calvanism" is,but you haven't a clue what Calvinism is.

Calvinism does not mean that believe in the Doctrines of Grace have to agree with the teachings of John Calvin in all particulars.Many Calvinists have read little to none of Calvin's works.They don't check to see if their beliefs line up with his.

You are a very confused lady on several levels. What people did he have killed in England?You are aware that he was primarily based in Geneva,aren't you?

______________________________________________________________


You are taking the scripture out of the context in which it is used to say what someone has taught you, not what the Word says, I've tried to show you where you are in error and it is fruitless.
[/quote]

There you go again making false assumptions.I go by the Word of God.

_____________________________________________________________

I guess you just decided to cast them aside like a banana peel gets cast aside when one eats a banana right, eating the parts you like and discarding what you don't like.
[/quote]
Can you please not repeat the same old lines about banana peels?It's not really advancing your cause.

____________________________________________________________


For if you would have read them you would find that the verses point out that "no one is elected until they are in Christ and Christ is in them". That does not happen until a person decides to accept Him now does it? Because if it happened before that time then a person would be able to become unsaved once they were saved, and that is not possible, God's Word shows that in many places.
[/quote]

More confusion of thought on your part.What do you think of Acts 13:48?

______________________________________________________________
Foreknowledge is not God's advance information? God is not a man, He is a Spirit and He knows what decision I will make before I make it, that is foreknowledge. He knew what Esau would do before Esau did it, also Jacob. He did not affect their decision to do it; but He knew. Maybe that is why He made the decision He did, maybe not; but, I do know I don't have the right to question Him do you?
[/quote]

I'm not the one questioning God.Why you brought that completely unrelated thought up is puzzling.

You're still in the dark regarding foreknowledge.I'll ask again -- what do you think of Acts 13:48?What does it mean?Your faith doesn't initiate with you.A true believer is one who is regenerated by God and given faith by the God.

Foreknowledge is before predestination,and faith is a result of predestination.Foreknowledge is God setting His love on those of His choosing.All those who are the foreknown are the objects of His eternal love.

2 Timothy 1:9 :"who has saved us and called us to a holy life -- not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time."

____________________________________________________________


what do you think that word whosoever means?
[/quote]

I told you before.You're not listening.Whosoever means = those who.In John 3:16 it means those who believe in Him.The Lord gives belief (faith) to those He chose in eternity past.

_____________________________________________________________

Sorry, if my few thoughts are jumbling up your mind here, I thought I was making this rather simple.
Have a nice day
YSIC
Joyce[/quote]

You have a nice day too.But I said your thoughts are jumbled.

Why don't you try shorter paragraphs?You have too many ideas in paragraphs which are too long and disjointed.

 

Why not, rip? If they were chosen to salvation from the foundation of the earth and the will of God is always sorereignly accomplished, then in spite of any evidence to the contrary, they are saved and just don't know it yet.

Thus the point at which they are "effectually called" would really be described, not as being saved, but as being called to discipleship --- or as John Mac would have it, "Lordship Salvation." But do you not see that LS is temporal salvation. It "saves" you in this life as is spoken of in Rom 5:10 -- "much more saved by His life?" Discipleship and SANCTIFICATION of the saints is NOT to eternal life.

So you take a word "know" that means "intercourse" elsewhere in the Bible and thereby prove that God foreloves certain ones? And the thought of equating those two ideas -- foreknow and fore-intercourse -- doesn't send up "red flags" in your theological cogitations?

So unsaved man CAN, on his own, resist if he wants but he can't not resist -- as in "irresistible grace?" And since we are all born unsaved, all can resist and there is none that is able to not resist. So exactly what is it causes the elect to not resist? Is it perhaps a "son of God gene" that they have? And how is it that most of them resist on several occasions before they finally don't resist?

I think your little theology is missing an important concept called BELIEF! People don't resist something -- most anything -- they have come to believe in. Your theology suggests that God gives belief to certain pre-chosen-but-unsaved people when, in fact, He can't "give" anyone something they don't believe in and therefore resist themselves!

See, now this just shows how unscrupulous your theology is! Webster defines "whosoever" as "whoever; whatever person." Why would anyone want to change the meaning of such simple words unless it was to lead people astray?! I'm sorry, rip, but you are dealing "treacherously" with us here! Consult your Strong's for some good references to that term.

Yeah, I see. In 2Thes 2:13 you left out that we are "chosen ... by belief in the truth." This confirms Rom 8:29 in that God foreknew who would believe. And they're NOT chosen by God's belief in the truth -- it's because He foreknew that THEY would believe it.

2Tim 1:9 -- our "holy calling" was given us "before the world began." Note that the "holy calling came AFTER we were saved. Notice too that "holy calling is to His "purposes" and His "grace." This use of the term "holy calling" is the true meaning "election." We are "elect" to God's purposes AFTER we are saved.

I'm really just answering you for joyce's sake. We've been through this all before but at least you respond a little more coherently to her than to me now! :laugh:

skypair

 

I'm a non-Cal, yet embrace many Cals as my brethren. Now the best explanation I can offer has been said already but I will add more.

Man's will is Free only as much as his nature allows. Man's will is Free to sin and is in fact a bond servant to sin. So irresistable grace MUST be viewed in the light of man's depravity. They are inseperable. Man CAN NOT by his nature respond (favorably) to the Gospel call without God FIRST working in the sinners heart (nature)

In short, man's will is so bound by sin and effected by sin he is incapable of responding to the Gospel call, if left TOTALLY up to man, man would 100% of the time REJECT the Gospel. Man HATES God by nature.

But because of irresistable grace (effectual call) God first REGENERATES the sinner by His sovereign Grace - that is the only logical first event - man's blind spiritual eyes are opened his dead heart is quickened, the evidence of this regeneration is faith in Christ and repentance of sin and he is effectually (irresistably) called to salvation.

From man's perspective he believed unto salvation, from a Divine perspective it is the effectual outworking of God's decree of his elect.

 

Can a non-Calvinist explainthe doctrine Irresistable Grace to me

Rippon and JC Jordan: Sorry that the two of you think I'm silly and have jumbled thoughts. I was just putting up things from memory, as I didn't have time to do research, I don't do research using the computer either, I go to the Word and to my library here at the house. But I will briefly state why I and John Calvin Differ ok?
1. I don't believe babies should be sprinkled he does
2. I don't believe in limited atonement or idolize Augustine and I do believe the millennial reign of Christ is going to be a literal reign.
3. John Calvin tries to use John 3:5 and Acts 2:38 to prove Baptismal Regeneration. I believe that baptism is a Christian's way of showing that they are in Christ, they have died to the flesh, they have been born again and are in Christ, this is just to symbolize that, nothing more, baptism does not save anyone.
4. I believe ALL sinners have the capacity to repent and believe on Jesus Christ, I don't believe as John Calvin did that the New Birth begins with no repenting or believing by the person being converted; but that repentence and believing happen after the sinner was saved ( God saying eenie meenie miney mo, I will save you and not you, you gotta go - God doesn't send anyone to hell, people send themselves, anyone who calls on the name of the Lord is saved, ANYONE, that doesn't show a select few does it now?)
5. Rev 13:8 "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" so I guess John Calvin thinks that Calvinists are that lamb? I think it's Jesus Christ. By the way, that was foreknowledge of God there, as God knew man would mess up, and He knew man would have to have a Savior.

As far as who Calvin martyred just go read the book "Foxes Book of Martyrs" that is some real church history there. Now I will agree to disagree and hopefully, some Bible Believing Baptist who has the patience and time can step up here and dispute the trash you two are calling truth.
joyce
4.

 

Hey Joyce,

Do you mind breaking your paragraphs with some spaces between thoughts. Dumb request, I know, but they are difficult for me to read.

Thanks.

 

Hi all,

Does it make any sense to any of you that we can know who is elect if we don't know how God chooses the elect? What if the people we think are elect are just pretending? or merely think they are elect? What distinguishes genuine from artificial belief?

By their own admission, they don't have the counsel of God on this. Like so many other things (how evil entered the world, how God chooses whom He does to salvation, etc.), they don't find it revealed to them in scripture. So they think it's special that they believe the gospel ("irresistibly" they say) when others don't. They somehow discount Paul's caveat that many "believe in vain," 1Cor 15:2. They get right to the threshold of salvation and then don't "receive" it, 15:1, 3. Because they believe it, they presume they have already received it.

Well, no. One poster here has it a little backward. Acts 2:38 says "Repent ... AND YE SHALL receive the Holy Ghost" -- not the other way around.

When the man or woman "of your dreams" proposed marriage, did you believe and then not give an answer? That, to me, is belief in vain. You'll neveer know if the proposal was authentic because you didn't personally respond to it.

skypair

 

Can a non-Calvinist explain the doctrine Irresistable Grace to

Reformed Baptist: It's not a dumb request, and yes I will try from now on to do that. I would like to see some Calvanist answer the question: Why did Jesus come to earth in the first place if God had already elected certain individuals to save? Seems like that was a waste of Jesus Christ's time to do so, if what they say is true right?

Secondly, just for the record, John Calvins' 5 point TULIP was entirely wrong except for the last one. That one scripture backs.

Thirdly, even though John Calvin was born in France and lived in France, has nothing to do with the fact that in England, (after King Henry IIX had all the Catholic Churches torn down because the Catholic Church refused to allow him to divorce his wife), that Presbyterianism, which is Calvanism, was being pushed onto all the citizens, not just in England; but in Ireland also, the Catholics were not allowed jobs, the Presbyterians got them all. So whether the man was there or not, his heresy definately was.
YSIC
Joyce