Can a non-Elect person be saved?---Calvinist debate only

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by evangelist6589, Jan 4, 2015.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
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    Sorry non-Cal and Arminian this is a Calvinist debate only. In this thread I will not debate if Calvinism is true so start another thread for that thanks..

    Reading through Chosen by God and struggling as its got some deep concepts that very few seem to understand. Was just reading an Arminian or better defined non-Calvinist book yesterday (he does not believe salvation can be lost) and this author I believe made the error of confusing hyper Calvinism (or sub-calvinism) with real Calvinism. He was saying that God created people for Hell, planted evil in their hearts and so forth. This is false.

    If you have the 1986 edition of Chosen by God turn to page 142 and RC says

    The Reformed view teaches that God positively or actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to insure their salvation. The rest of mankind God leaves to themselves. He does not create unbelief in their hearts. That unbelief is already there. He does not coerce them to sin. They sin by their own choices.

    So by this view can a non-elect person be saved or will they go to Hell? We all know that the elect will respond and God has granted them faith and repentance but I have to wonder about the non-elect. No God does not create sin, but I have to wonder if by their own FREE WILL they can choose God, just as they can choose to sin. I know this is a confusing matter so please do not add to my confusion. Please keep your replies short and to the point, thanks..

    John
     
  2. Marooncat79

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    Only the elect are saved. The early Baptist confessions bear this out-see the 1689 2nd London Baptist Confession

    Jesus said to his disciples "You did not choose me, but I chose you. After this many turn and no longer walked with Him" John 15:16 and 6:65-66

    Man will never choose God left to his own devices.

    Martin Luther believed that his most important theological work was "The Bondage of the Will".


    He was correct, but his most important work overall was his translation of the Greek New Testament into the common language of the people (German).
     
  3. evangelist6589

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    I do agree. I just struggle with the notion that God creates and damns 100 billion people to go to Hell.
     
  4. OldRegular

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    I believe only the elect are saved but, since I am not a Calvinist, just ignore this post!
     
  5. Marooncat79

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    God gives them over to the desires of their heart.
     
  6. TCassidy

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    Can an unbeliever be saved? No. He not only doesn't believe, he hates God and counts Him as an enemy.
     
  7. Thousand Hills

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  8. plain_n_simple

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    If it is true that only the pre-chosen are saved, then the opposite has to be true also. The non-elect do not have a chance in hell of escaping it.

    No matter what happens, they are going to a burning eternity. God has made the choice.

    Doesn't matter if one hell-bound sinner confesses, believes, and has faith, he still might be damned.

    It stands to reason that John Calvin might be damned as well as Hitler.

    Confessed believers as well as the atheist have the same reality, they both could be damned to hell.
     
  9. Thousand Hills

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    PNS, please abide by the request in the OP. If you would like to start another thread sharing "your" reasoning, please feel free to do so.

     
  10. plain_n_simple

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    I am making a presumption that Predestination is true, I have a Calvin hat on.

    I am not challenging the validity of Calvinism.

    The statement "Only the elect are saved" is also saying "the non-elect are damned".

    These are two inseparable statements.

    The cup is half full = the cup is half empty

    The question is can the non-elect be saved?

    Of course not.

    You might not even be a Calvinist so please try not to disqualify me, I might be a Calvinist too, but we won't know til judgement day.
     
  11. thomas15

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    I don't see how a non-elect individual becomes saved. OK, I claim to be mildly calvinistic but I'm struggling with the way in which Cals explain election and then proceed to talk about evangelization.

    Honestly, I think the biggest problem facing Arms is that they have always been bullied by the Cals and the truth is the Cals are better able to communicate their opinions. At this point in my study I conclude that neither system has all the answers.
     
  12. plain_n_simple

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    Calvinistic evangelism has to focus on the elect only.

    God will not lead the non-elect to an evangelist to be saved. It would be an exercise in futility and would make God look cruel to the pre-damned and foolish to the evangelist.

    No, God leads the unknowing elect to the elect evangelist, and sooner or later all the elect will be drawn in and saved as God planned. He won't lose any.

    If an elect evangelist preaches to a pre-damned person by accident, God has it covered, that person is still damned. He won't gain any.
     
  13. evangelist6589

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    Thanks will look there. Bye the way I like that actor from the Dukes of Hazard. He played in several Twilight Zone episodes including one with a witch. However if you want to discuss the occult and neo-paginism we can start a thread on that topic.
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    plain_n_simple

    This does not make any sense. Evangelism focuses on sinners.
    Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.
    Everyone qualifies as a sinner.
    The gospel if presented to sinners;
    25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

    Why do you say that when it happens everyday in the providence of God?

    26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

    27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

    28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

    29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

    30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

    31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.


    No.. salvation and damnation unfold in real time....What God has ordained to take place takes place. men do what they do in time and history. Both are happening every day 24/7....

    14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

    15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

    16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

    17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

    I believe that for this to be understood correctly God's Covenant salvation must be understood correctly also.:thumbs:

    Jesus as the Good shepherd say's He seeks and saves all of His sheep.None are lost...he will draw them to Himself and provide the exact means necessary to save everyone of them
    He is not willing that any perish...and not one single one will perish....

    11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
    12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
    16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away

    Ezekiel 34 King James Version (KJV)

    34 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

    2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

    3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

    4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

    5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

    6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

    7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

    8 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

    9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

    10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

    11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

    12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

    13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

    14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

    15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God.

    16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

    17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

    18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

    19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

    20 Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.

    21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;

    22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

    23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

    24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

    25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace,


    [/QUOTE]

    There is no such thing as an accident with the biblical God....
     
  15. savedbymercy

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    No, the non elect have no chance or choice of ever being saved, they are vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction by the Eternal Purpose of God !
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Delete post!
     
    #16 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 5, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2015
  17. PreachTony

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    Just out of curiosity, how does God give them over to the desires of their heart when He never gives them a chance to be anything else? By that logic, God has created a vast number of people for no other purpose than to be eternally damned. If the Bible is accurate (which I think most of us believe it is), then God has actually created far more people for eternal damnation than for eternal glory in Him.

    Then again, I'm not a Calvinist, so just ignore this post...
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    We do not hold to fatalism, as Muslims have Allah doing, and we do not hold to Double Predestination, as the Lord actively saves Hos own out from sinful Humanity, but lives the rest to stay in their sins, as they are choosing to do!
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    Does God get glory by the eternal states of botht the saved and the lost, is anyone lost that really wanted to get saved, but He blocked them from that?
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    PreachTony

    That is what scripture declares in romans 1;


    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    it is declared in scripture and explained...it is also logical however

    15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?


    If that were true[I do not agree]....would that be okay with you?

    Adam sinned and brought about death....do not blame God.


    all professed believers need to answer to all the verses.
     

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