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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by BeeBee, Oct 17, 2002.
Can a person be saved and not in the Church?
I'm not sure I understand.
Do you mean the local church or the universal church?
I voted no assuming that what is meant by the body of Christ is the universal church. If you mean that can a person be saved and not be a member of a local church then my answer would be yes.
If you define church as "Christ's Body" -- as in the poll -- (and you are talking about the true spiritual manifestation of Christ's Body), then no.
If you are talking about the earthly manifestation of Christ's Body, then certainly, there are believers who have not joined a church for one reason or another.
I have some friends who just moved to New Hampshire who are having trouble finding a church. Other than the outright cults and "believe nothing" Congregational churches in the area ("Christian Science" (sic) is popular there), they have their choice of an extremely legalistic pastor-ruled non-denom church or a kick your heels and jump for the ceiling charismatic church with health and wealth tendencies, vigorous tongue-speaking and flaky theology.
They are still looking, but fortunately they will only be there about six months.
[ October 17, 2002, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]
A person who is saved will *eventually* attach himself to a local body of believers. I do not believe someone can be saved if he/she does not ever connect themselves physically to a local membership.
[ October 17, 2002, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
My point is, My pastor does "not" believe in a universal church, and believes that "our" visible church is the only scriptural church. I believe this is absurd. He believes you can be saved and not be in the Church.
Your pastor believes your local church is the ONLY chruch where someone can be saved? That just plain dosn't make any sense. Are you sure he dosn't mean baptist chruches in general? There is no way anyone with any common sense could believe one local church could be the only scriptural church. If he really believes that then he would expect every born-again believer in the world to attend his services every Sunday. That would be a big commute for me, and a bigger one for our members in Canada, UK, etc.
Perhaps he is saying that baptist chruchs which believe the same doctrine are the ony scriptual chruchs. You should talk with him to find out exactly what he believes. If he truly believes that your local chruch is the only chruch then you better start searching for a new chruch. If he believes that then I'm sure he has some other messed up doctrine.
If the only way he defines "church" is as a local NT church, then I would agree with him that a person can be saved and not be a member of a "church". I however believe in the "church" as in all who are redeemed by Christs blood (not just one local assembly) in addition to the church defined as a local body of believers, and I do not think that one can be saved and not be a member of the body of Christ. Clear as mud right?
Just to clear things up, my pastor believes that the BMA "Baptist Missionary Association" or missionary baptists are "the" church that Christ started and the only institution. Here is a part from a statement of faith:
15. The establishment of a visible church by Christ Himself during His personal ministry on earth; and His churches are not now, nor have they ever been, universal or invisible.
Please comment on this part of the statement of faith;
Of course you can have the saving grace of Christ and not be a member of any local assembly. There are many folks who are physically infirm that it would be unwise to immerse who would find it offensive to think otherwise. This could also apply to the mentally incapacitated, infants, and those who for what ever reason haven't chosen to ask for a church home somewhere.
Now, I do believe that when Christ gives salvation to his children they become part of the universal church. I know that one will stir up a hornet's nest, so I am going to find a bunker.
Brother Jeff is there is room in your bunker for two?... Brother Glen
So you disagree? because this says theres NEVER been a universal church....?
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was being built up. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it multiplied.
Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Galatians 1:13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it.
Ephesians 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
Ephesians 3:21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
Esphesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, ...
Ephesians 5:29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Sounds like a universal church to me.
(All verses ESV)
[ October 22, 2002, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]
Thanks for that. I knew I liked you for some reason or another.
Bro. Glen, we are going to have get out those entrenching tools and make a bigger bunker.
[ October 22, 2002, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]
The physical church is only a building. The church itself is all believers, sharing Jesus with others. If they have believed, then they are saved.
How could it be otherwise?
Wouldn't your pastor be unsaved when he's at home, or when the church falls into dust and a vacant lot is there?
And, as probably a side note, unless it's what the pastor means (I'm confused a little because it's so absurd) everybody who is part of The Church needs to be part of A church and trying to grow and learn if at all possible .
There are some Baptist Churches that believe the only God-ordained institutions on earth are local churches. They do not believe salvation is limited to their local assembly. Many do believe the so-called universal church is a man-made concoction. All movements must stem from the local church. No denomination or organization should ordain, commission or otherwise do the work of the church,,,,,mission societies, TV evangelism and the likes.
These are not my beliefs. I am just saying there are such Baptist Churches.
A couple of thousand years ago there was this thief on a cross and he was never in a church and guess what yep he was saved.
I agree with others who have said that if the questioner is talking about the universal church than the answer is No. Man is saved and made part of the universal church at the same moment. If he was refering to the local church than yes a person may be out of relationship with a local church and still be saved.
Im gonna crawl into the bunker with Brothers Jeff, Glen, and rsr. Of course at this late date Ill probably have to bring my own shovel, and dig my own space.
Hand me a spade as well..... I`m with you guys.
anyone speak Welsh in there??????