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Featured Can a professed Christian lie and bear false witness everyday ?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Dec 26, 2014.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Really...how do you account or understand this verse;

    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Are you saying that a person can habitually practice sin, and still be an actual Christian?
    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of anothe
     
  3. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    That's post-resurrection.

    See Rev 19:11-20:6

    The heavens open, and a white horse comes. On it is He who was called Faithful and True...and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon whire horses

    See 1Thess 3:13, which says He will return with all His saints.1Cor 15:23 those in Christ will be raised at His coming. Then verses 51-52 say we will not all sleep, but some will be changed. 1Thess 4:17 says we will meet Him in the air.

    Rev 20:4-6 tells us that at the time of His coming is the resurrection

    Chapter 22 is after that.


    In order to get it, one has to understand righteousness. Righreousness is not sinning less, righteousness is SINLESS.

    The washing of regeneration cleanses our inner man of sin with the blood of Christ. We literally become the righteousness of God in our spirit. New creation, not simply a new disposition. We are washed clean by the Holy Spirit. Forever perfected by the blood of Christ, which removes our sin. Read Hebrews 9 & 10

    How do you think it's possible that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Because at death, the perfected, righteous, sinless inner man simply sheds this sinful body of death

    In the resurrection, our body will regenerated, created anew, sinless, holy, righteous. Compare Titus 3:5 "regeneration" to Matthew 19:28 "regeneration". Paul was speaking of a washing that happens at conversion. Literal cleansing. Jesus used the same word about the resurrection - palingennesia - literally meaning born again.

    We have been saved by the washing of "born again" - our inner man
    In the "born again" (resurrection), our body will be washed

    So those in Revelation have been washed inside and out - post resurrection. Not possible to partake in those activities once our sinless inner man is joined to a body that is sinless

    The dogs outside are unregenerate
     
  4. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely possible. What you quoted is only part of an admonition to focus on the righteous inner man, which has been CREATED in righteousness and true holiness.

    The admonition starts in verses 22-23 "put off the old man, be renewed in the spirit of your mind"

    He's talking to genuine believers. And giving instructions.

    The very instruction itself carries the possibility that it might not be followed. Otherwise, it's useless drivel.

    Imagine if somebody told you not to throw a javelin from your house to Australia.
    Or if they told you not to jump up to the top of the Empire State building
    Or if they told you not to blow flames out of your ears.

    Pretty pointless, because I'm guessing you aren't able to do those things anyway. The very afmonition, or charge, or command (however you word it) means it is something you might not abide by


    Christians are admonished to walk in the spirit, denoting we might not. To put off lusts and envies and all manner of perverted fleshly desires

    If those things aren't possible for a Christian, the admonition is retarded. And if theyre possible, then it's posdible for it to be habitual. Just read 1st and 2nd Corinthians, and you'll see a whole church full of messed up believers walking in the flesh - which means having our minds set on the things which the body desires with its 5 senses
     
    #24 JamesL, Dec 27, 2014
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  5. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks ICON! :thumbsup:
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The question is not are christians able to sin....the question is once saved...can you continue in the habit or practice of sin.

    if a murderer gets saved...can he still continue to murder people?

    if a thief gets saved...can he steal on a daily basis?

    Does salvation not impact a person at all?

    Is holiness a nice idea...but not really necessary at all?
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    What some people are calling lies are really nothing more than opposing views, misunderstandings, and personal characterizations. The response to calling the lies is often nothing more than demonization to shut down the opposing view. While I have no idea who the op is referencing it is what I see on this board regularly.
     
  8. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    If you're able, then you're able continuously.

    Like I said, the very command to be holy, to pick up your cross, to lay aside the deeds of the flesh, etc., means that it's very possible you might not obey.

    But you've spun an unwarranted scenario in the end, equating possibility with necessity


    I would ask - necessary for what?

    Is holiness necessary to pass through the Pearly Gates? NO
    Is holiness necessary to validate a believer's faith? absolutely not
    Is holiness necessary to have proper fellowship with God? depends


    So the necessity you ask about must be qualified with an objective
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    There are many reasons why i do not think what you are saying is correct..I will give one now...you said;

    Then what does this verse mean....

    14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    If I respond to this post and say...Rm said lies are really nothing at all-

    would that be a lie, an untruthful statement, and false witness? or something else.
     
  11. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Since you quoted it, how about you first tell us what you're reading into it
     
  12. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Scripture is clear, IMHO, that the expectation is that salvation leads to a transformed life each and every time. If a professing Christian doesn't exhibit a transformed life, there are only a couple of options:

    1. The person is saved, but spiritually immature. Such a person can be expected to respond to the truth of God's Word, upon conviction of Holy Spirit, and will change their conduct to conform to God's commandments.

    or

    2. The person has been deceived, or deceived themselves into believing they are saved. Such a person can be expected to continue in rebellion, ignoring guidance from other Christians and doing what seems good in their own mind.
     
  13. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Pretty good assessment
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :applause::applause::applause::wavey:
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I just quoted it...I believe it, no need to read anything into it. It does not seem to match what you offered. Did you notice that?

    also... I know rev 22 is the eternal state...did you notice that liars are not in heaven those who love to make a lie....so it is not acceptable to God.
     
  16. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Well, 1Tim 6:16 says that no man has ever, nor can ever, see the Father. Seems to have no qualifications. In other words - no one, whether holy or not, will see the Father

    Also, Revelation 1:7 says that every eye shall see Christ when He comes in the cloud. Even those who aren't holy.

    So...what are you reading into this "see the Lord" that leads you to ask your question?


    Also, I don't understand the thrust of what you are getting at with "not acceptable"

    Agreed. So what are you getting at? Maybe you define"acceptable" differently?
     
    #36 JamesL, Dec 28, 2014
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  17. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    That is exactly what I believe. Unfortunately, this board has members fitting into both catagories, and it is clearly seen in the fruits of their spirit in the body of the narratives they post! All we can do is pray for them, and believe that God can reach their hearts!
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JamesL
    yes...they will see him as judge
    Without holiness they will not go to heaven, they will see the judge at the white throne, then they will see the second death eternally

    Lying and those who are liars go into the second death...not heaven...it was not acceptable to God...

    S. Lewis Johnson:

     
    #38 Iconoclast, Dec 29, 2014
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  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    A.W.Pink quotes from these two commentators:

    "From his exhortation unto patient perseverance in the profession of the Gospel under sufferings and affliction, the apostle proceeds unto a prescription of practical duties; and although they are such as are absolutely necessary in themselves at all times, yet they are here peculiarly enjoined with respect to the same end, or our constancy in professing the Gospel. For no light, no knowledge of the truth, no resolution or courage, will preserve any man in his profession, especially in times of trial, without a diligent attention unto the duties of holiness and Gospel obedience. And he begins with a precept, general and comprehensive of all others" (John Owen).

    The connection between Hebrews 12:14, etc., and verses 12, 13, is threefold. First, the diligent pursuit of peace toward our fellows and of holiness toward God are timely aids unto perseverance in the faith and in consequence, powerful means for preservation from apostasy. The one is so closely joined to the other that the former cannot be realized without an eager striving after the latter. Second, inasmuch as love toward our neighbor ("peace," with all that that involves and includes) and love toward God ("holiness") is the sum of our duty, it is impossible that we should devote ourselves unto their cultivation and exercise so long as we axe permitting afflictions and persecution to paralyze the mind: the spirit of resolute determination must possess us before we can develop our spiritual graces. Third, oppression and suffering provide an opportunity for the exercise and manifestation of our spiritual graces, and are to be improved by us to this very end. "If the children of God grow impatient under afflictions, they will neither walk so quietly and peaceably towards men nor so piously toward God as they should do" (Matthew Henry).

    I will break the rest down into segments as the thought require meditation....
     
    #39 Iconoclast, Dec 29, 2014
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  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "Follow peace with all men." The Greek word for "follow" is a very emphatical one, signifying an "earnest pursuit:" it is the eager chasing after something which flies from one, being used of hunters and hounds after game. The Christian is to spare no effort to live amicably with all men, and no matter how contentious and unfriendly they may be, he is to strive and overtake that which seeks to flee from him. Peace is one of the outstanding graces which the Christian is called upon to exercise and manifest. All things pertaining to the Church are denominated things of peace. God is "the God of peace" (Heb. 13:20), Christ is "the Prince of peace" (Isa. 9:6), a believer is designated "the son of peace" (Luke 10-6), and Christians are bidden to have their "feet shod with the preparation of the Gospel of peace" (Eph. 6:15).

    In this term "follow," or pursue, the apostle continues to preserve the central figure of the entire passage, introduced in the first verse of our chapter, of the running of a race: the same word is rendered "I press forward" in Philippians 3:14. Peace may be elusive and hard to capture, nevertheless strive after it, run hard in the chase thereof, for it is well worth overtaking. Spare no pains, strain every nerve to attain unto it. If this exhortion be duly heeded by us then Christians are plainly forbidden to embroil themselves or take any part in the strifes and quarrels of the world: thus they are hereby forbidden to engage in politics, where there is little else than envy, contention and anger. Still less may the Christian take any part in war: there is not a single word in all the N.T. which warrants a follower of the Prince of peace slaying his fellowmen. "Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it" (Ps. 34:14).

    The word "follow" or pursue does not imply the actual obtainment of peace: the most eager hunters and hounds often miss their prey. Nevertheless, nothing short of our utmost endeavors are required of us. "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men" (Rom. 12:18): with fellow-Christians, with those who are strangers to Christ (Eph. 2:19), with our enemies (Matthew 5:44). Few things more adorn and beautify a Christian profession than exercising and manifesting the spirit of peace. Then let us prayerfully strive to avoid those things which occasion strife. Remember the old adage that "It takes two to make a quarrel:" therefore see to it that you provoke not others. Give no encouragement to those who love contention; refrain from all argument—the things of God are too holy: debating is a work of the flesh. To "follow peace with all men" presupposes righteousness in our dealings with them, for we most certainly are not entitled to expect them to treat us amicably unless we give unto each his due, and treat others as we would have them treat us.

    Do not merely be placid when no one irritates you, but go out of your way to be gracious unto those who oppose. Be not fretful if others fail to render the respect which you consider to be your due. Do not be so ready to "stand up for your rights," but yield everything except truth and the requirements of holiness. "If we would follow peace, we must gird up our loins with the girdle of forbearance: we must resolve that as we will not give offense, so neither will take offense, and if offense be felt, we must resolve to forgive" (C.H. Spurgeon). Remember we cannot successfully "pursue peace" if the heavy burden of pride be on our shoulder: pride ever stirs up strife. Nor can we "pursue peace" if the spirit of envy fills the heart: envy is sure to see faults where they exist not, and make trouble. Nor can we "pursue peace" if we are loose-tongued, busybodies, talebearers.

    Even when opposed, our duty is to be peaceful toward those who persecute—a hard lesson, a high attainment, yet Divine grace (when earnestly sought) is "sufficient" even here. Remember the example which the Savior has left us: and cry mightily unto God for help to emulate the same. "When He was reviled, He reviled not again; when He suffered, He threatened not" (1 Pet. 2:23): He prayed for God to forgive His very murderers. "With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love" (Eph. 4:2). Ah, there are the prerequisities for the procuring of peace—the lack of which being the cause of so much confusion, strife and war. If love reigns our skirts will be dear, for "Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; doth not behave itself unseemly; seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked; thinketh no evil, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things" (1 Cor. 13:4-7).

    "Follow peace with all men." This includes even more than we have intimated above: the Christian is not only to be a peace-keeper, but he should seek to be a peace-maker: such have the express benediction of Christ—"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God" (Matthew 5:9). Seek, then, to restore amicable relations between those who are at enmity and be used of God as a medium of their reconciliation. Instead of fanning the flames of dissension or driving the wedge of division further in, endeavor to cool them by the water of the Word, and by a gracious demeanor and wise counsel seek to smooth out difficulties and heal wounds. "And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace" (James 3:18). "Peaceable men do sow a seed that afterward will yield sheaves of comfort into their own bosoms" (T. Manton).
     
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