can A True Christian Commit Apostesy?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    is it possible for a geniune believer in jesus christ to actually get to the point of denying the faith and commit Apotesy unto loss of his salvation?

    Know Armenians say yes to that question, what about 4 and 5 point Calvanists though?
     
  2. annsni

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    What is the "P" of the five points??
     
  3. Van

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    Reply to Jesusfan,

    I say no it is not possible for someone who has been saved to lose salvation completely. Thus, if you are a new creation in Christ, you will receive your inheritance. I base this on 1 Peter 1:3-5. But, even with a core belief in Christ protected by God, we can still quench the Spirit, and not earn much in the way of reward either by inaction or misdirected action. But even a miserable Christian like myself can expect to enter heaven, perhaps not much better off than one escaping from a fire.

    May God Bless
     
  4. freeatlast

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    The answer is no. In fact a true Christian cannot even return to sinning as a daily practice according to scripture as they are kept from it. 1John 3
     
  5. Amy.G

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    I am quite frankly confused on this issue. I believe the scriptures say that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, meaning salvation can't be lost.
    But I have seen people who received Jesus and later fell away. When I say "received Jesus" I mean that they had a profound experience and their lives changed. I'm not talking about someone who just walked the isle or repeated the sinner's prayer.

    So I just don't know, I'm sorry to say.
     
  6. webdog

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    I say yes he can...but...I don't believe they will lose their salvation. I believe it is a "sin unto death", though. I believe satan can decieve a true believer into thinking they are not saved in order to make their witness moot. Think C.S. Lewis' Screwtape Letters.
     
  7. glfredrick

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    This is going to open another theological can of worms, but the answer to your dilemma lies in the difference between religion and true born-again relationship with God -- the heart of 90+% of the conversations around here.

    IF we are born again by God, not of our own doing, then we are indeed sealed into Christ by the Holy Spirit and NOTHING can remove us, even ourselves.

    On the other hand, IF we "come to Christ" and join in the faith expression with others doing likewise but are never made a new creation by God, then we really have no hope at all. Falling away when things don't go right, or when it no longer "feels" like we are one of God's children is not only expected, but we should be surprised when it doesn't happen instead of when it does.

    Sadly, the two different positions that make up what is called "Christian" LOOK and ACT and SOUND virtually the same. Enough so, that probably only God can truly sort out the wheat from the tares. Each carries and reads from the same book. Each has a place where people gather, sing, read, listen to preaching, etc. Each has all sorts of things they do, give to, work at, etc., but only one is God-created. The other is purely human created and is essentially no different from pagan worship of rocks and trees, save that it has the right book and the right name of God to call out.

    The difference is whether WE come to God and join His efforts or whether GOD comes to us and makes us a new creation. Unless God "builds the house" it is built in vain, even if it assimilates all the trappings of a house built on the solid foundation that is Christ.

    Because the differences are so slight, so nuanced, and so difficult for us to discern (truly, the Scriptures say that only God can know the heart!) we may never know the difference between the two groups of people, for they are essentially one, save for the internal change brought about by God alone.

    What I just wrote will make some folks angry. It will make some folks sad. It will make some call me names. It will make others shout hallelujah! But, I believe that what I wrote is the the heart of the gospel -- that WE cannot make ourselves right with God, and that only God, through Christ, with the Holy Spirit can do the work that equals salvation, giving us that eternal hope that cannot be robbed.

    Some reading those words may reflect on their own spiritual condition and wonder if they are the "religious ones" or the ones that God has re-created. I'd humbly suggest that the only way to know for sure is to beg God to reveal this, and to beg God to grant salvation. Any sense of self-assurance based on one's actions, faith, alignment, etc., is likely a counterfeit of the real thing, for God does not work as a man, that we might control His actions based on our own wants, desires, or needs.
     
  8. freeatlast

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    Amy here in lies the problem. Who are we going to believe?
    1John 3:9,10 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
    In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not (practice) righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    This not a time issue. it is a Character issue. I only do this with someone who I feel is saved who is having trouble with this so here goes.

    If you believe a Christian can live even one day practicing of sin, try it yourself. Immediately for the true believer they realize it is impossible. Not just for them as the are not some spiritual elite, but for any child of God. For the true believer even the slightest of sin is bitter. To the false professing what is bitter to us looks like sweetness.
    The teaching of backsliding today is totally satanic and not of God. If they fall away they were never saved no matter how long they seemed to walk with God or how many things they did in His name. If they do return and remain then they got saved for the first and only time, but not before they left. Keep in mind that reformation in a person is possible, but it takes transformation to be saved.
    The sad thing is that this false doctrine permeates the church and many times we see people who return time after time to rededicate while the whole time they are not even saved. If I were a pastor who taught this damnable satanic doctrine of backsliding I would be in terror to stand before the Lord. For those who do not hold that fear then i assure them it will come upon them as they have sent multitudes to their doom because of their false teaching.
     
    #8 freeatlast, Mar 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2011
  9. Amy.G

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    Thanks for the responses. The person I'm talking about said "I met Jesus". He went from not believing the bible to believing it to be God's word. From not going to church to going and telling everyone that he had "met Jesus". He said he had no doubt. But when things didn't go his way and it seemed God wasn't listening, he started having doubts and thinking God didn't and life consisted of working your behind off and then you die. He stopped going to church, saying he didn't need it, then stopped reading his bible. Now he says he won't know if he is going to heaven until he gets there.

    Was this person never saved?


    And he did not sink into sin.
     
  10. glfredrick

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    I would say that the person in question almost perfectly matches one of the descriptions I gave above. And, I would add that this person was probably not saved, but rather, "religious." Let's think about it... Plenty of Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc., all go to church, read a Bible, pray to God, "worship," etc., but they are not saved, because God has not done a work in them (and if He has, they are saved IN SPITE of their "church" affiliation, which can happen).
     
  11. jbh28

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    um...nope


    and it's "Arminians" that believe that. Here is a link to the theology of the Armenians from Armenia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Apostolic_Church
     
  12. Van

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    Two Points

    I think born again Christians who have be saved (God put them spiritually in Christ) can sin big time. But because of our covering, having been made perfect in Christ, justified so to speak, it is just as if we did not sin. I think that is the idea of 1 John 3:5, in Him there is no sin. So if we say we do not sin, we are a liar, but because we are "in Christ" we can agree with 1 John 3:6 and say no one who abides in Christ sins. That is how I fit together 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 3:6.

    How do we know we are really "born again?" We test ourselves (at communion) and consider whether we have the fruit of the Spirit and desire to humbly follow our Lord. If we fail that test, if our heart condemns us, then we should have no confidence we are "really" in Christ Jesus.

    I have been taking that test for 50 plus years, and I always eat the bread and take the cup, not because of the minutes I spend in prayer, or the number of memory verses I have learned, but because I totally trust in my Lord.
     
  13. freeatlast

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    No, not according to scripture.
    1john 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
     
  14. freeatlast

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    That is exactly the heretical teaching that John was trying to combat. it is called Gnosticism. a damnable teaching that seperates the sinner from the sin or the responsibility.
     
  15. Baptist4life

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    Excuse me, but we all sin everyday. Is there ever a single day where you can say "yep, I got through this day without committing one single sin"? That would take "perfection". I'm not there yet, and neither are you, sorry.
     
    #15 Baptist4life, Mar 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2011
  16. Van

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    Reply to Freeatlast,

    I do not know where you are coming from but nothing I said is even remotely Gnosticism. I did not separate the sin from the sinner, I said we sin big time, but because we are justified in Christ, it is just as if we did not sin.

    I supported my view with two verses.
     
  17. zrs6v4

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    As easy as it is to put a nice box around issues like these, I don't think it is our place to judge the person ultimately. Of course it is not a good sign either way when one outright says, "I quite" (maybe he does need to "quite" to fall into God's hands again or for the first time). There are strict warnings against unbelief, but when I read what you wrote about him I can see confusion. He has bought the lie when we are the Lord's, things go our way. Life has been terribly destroyed by sin. Everything we do on this earth is tiresome, hard, and tainted by sin as we head to our physical death. The closer we get to God I think the closer we realize the nastiness of this fallen world that can easily lead to depression when we have our falling out with Him. There is only one hope and that is of course our Lord. One day we will no longer be in this place of pain and misery. The interesting thing is that the very trials that are in our life or the times where God seems "absent" are the times when our faith comes in most purely. Keep praying for him.

    To the OP, it is impossible for anything to pull a saved person from the hands of God because God is in control from start to finish and the atonement was simply for complete forgiveness.
     
  18. Ron Wood

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    For you Calvinists something to think on. For you Arminians something to choke on. :smilewinkgrin:

    Who is it that must bear the shame if any for whom Christ became Surety ends up falling away or not being saved? It certainly wouldn't be the sinner because his safety doesn't depend on him but on the Surety. The Biblical concept of a surety is one who takes all the responsibility not just part of it and because he does the debtor must go free. His debt is no longer his own but the surety's.

    Examples: Judah becoming surety for Benjamin in Gen. 43:9, Paul becoming surety for Onesimus in Philemon 18, Jesus in the garden in John18:8.

    When Christ became our covenant Surety He made Himself responsible for all those whom He became Surety for. If He loses one He must bear the shame.
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    Presbyterians believe the NC. is breakable. We do not.
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    The covenant death of Jesus on behalf of the elect is sure for all the sheep.
    He actually saves all He intended to.The only question is are you a sheep?
     

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