can an arminian believe

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by massdak, Feb 14, 2004.

  1. massdak

    massdak
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    that Jesus is Lord unless he is enabled by the spirit of God ?

    1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    no matter what a person believes that faith is, it is apparent that belief in Jesus as Lord is only by the Spirit of God. if you can give any credit toward your own ability to believe Jesus is Lord, then you must read 1 cr 12:3
     
  2. Yelsew2

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    I know of none who do what you question! I have never met one of Arminian persuasion that speaks of the Christ as being anything but the Son of God, the Messiah! I have never met any true CHRISTIAN who does not acknowledge the work of the Holy Spirit in his/her life. AND, I have never met a TRUE CHRISTIAN that claims to be saved without first "Hearing the word of GOD".

    I have never met a TRUE CHRISTIAN who attributes their faith in God, first to regeneration, then to hearing the Word of God. I have seen the posts of those on this BBS that "think", falsely, that regeneration comes first, but that is because they heed the words of another who was just like us, trying to understand, but who's understanding is faulty. On the one hand they say that one must be regenerated, while on the other hand that declare that "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Well it just don't happen both ways, and sinse regeneration is a relatively new concept that conflicts with the longstanding "faith cometh..." concept, I think it wise to stick with "Faith Cometh".
     
  3. Skandelon

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    The Spirit of God brought us the gospel message, so no, we could not believe unless the Holy Spirit had brought us the gospel.

    BTW, you made a big hermenuetical mistake. 1 Cor. 12:3 has nothing to do with a persons confession of Christ unto salvation. It has to do with determining whether ones spiritual gifts were of God. That was the issue Paul was addressing, so to apply this passage to our discussion on soteriology is a dangerous way to derive the intent of scripture.
     
  4. massdak

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    The Spirit of God brought us the gospel message, so no, we could not believe unless the Holy Spirit had brought us the gospel.

    BTW, you made a big hermenuetical mistake. 1 Cor. 12:3 has nothing to do with a persons confession of Christ unto salvation. It has to do with determining whether ones spiritual gifts were of God. That was the issue Paul was addressing, so to apply this passage to our discussion on soteriology is a dangerous way to derive the intent of scripture.
    </font>[/QUOTE]btw you maybe making a big mistake by not taking the application to apply to the reality of meaning. if a Christian needs the Holy Spirit to confess Jesus as Lord then what about an unregenerate, are they able?
     
  5. Yelsew2

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    The Spirit of God brought us the gospel message, so no, we could not believe unless the Holy Spirit had brought us the gospel.

    BTW, you made a big hermenuetical mistake. 1 Cor. 12:3 has nothing to do with a persons confession of Christ unto salvation. It has to do with determining whether ones spiritual gifts were of God. That was the issue Paul was addressing, so to apply this passage to our discussion on soteriology is a dangerous way to derive the intent of scripture.
    </font>[/QUOTE]btw you maybe making a big mistake by not taking the application to apply to the reality of meaning. if a Christian needs the Holy Spirit to confess Jesus as Lord then what about an unregenerate, are they able?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Does an unregenerate have FAITH in God? Unregenerate's may have heard of God, but they do not have faith in God and they therefore do not have the Holy Spirit, and in that condition cannot confess Jesus Christ as the Son of God. That is the reason that FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and thus one becomes regenerated by hearing the word of God and believing.

    An unregenerate my be able to mouth the words, but they are powerless words.

    One cannot be Christian until one has FAITH in, and submits to the teachings, and does the bidding of Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah. It is only then that one is Christian!
     
  6. KayDee

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    One hears the word – God regenerates him – he believes (has faith) the word of God and is saved – then and only then, he is able to submit to the teachings and do the bidding of Messiah. One does not have to submit to the teachings or do any bidding to be saved...that would be a salvation by works.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  7. Skandelon

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    First, no one "needs" the Holy Spirit to confess Jesus as Lord, anyone can say the words, "Jesus is Lord." Yes, even unregenerate people can confess that with their mouths but not mean it in their hearts. This is not about confession unto salvation, as I pointed out in my previous post. This is about determining the source of spiritual gifts. Remember that the gift of tongues was an issue in Corinth along with other gifts. Paul was merely saying that those speaking by the spirit who can confess Jesus as the Christ prove themselves as being from God. False spirits, demonic in nature, cannot make that confession.

    So its not unregenerate people who can't say the words, "Jesus is Lord." Its demonic spirits that cannot and will not say such things. Again, let me say applying passages having to do with determining if someones spiritual gifting is legit to determining whether someone has the Spirit before he believes and is saved is very poor hermenuetics.

    Scripture is very clear that people had the ability to believe Jesus was divine and even say so before the Spirit of God had come to them.
     
  8. Yelsew2

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    One hears the word – God regenerates him – he believes (has faith) the word of God and is saved – then and only then, he is able to submit to the teachings and do the bidding of Messiah. One does not have to submit to the teachings or do any bidding to be saved...that would be a salvation by works.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
    </font>[/QUOTE]KayDee, Hearing the Word is not regeneration! Believing what you hear is!

    Many people hear the Word of God but do not believe, and are therefore not regenerated. But those who do believe are regenerated and become new creations.

    Believing leads to submission, submission leads to doing the bidding of the savior Jesus Christ. Once one submits and begins doing the bidding of Jesus Christ, one can truly be called "Christian", for the one is truly a disciple, an adherant, a student, of the Christ.
     
  9. massdak

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    First, no one "needs" the Holy Spirit to confess Jesus as Lord, anyone can say the words, "Jesus is Lord." Yes, even unregenerate people can confess that with their mouths but not mean it in their hearts. This is not about confession unto salvation, as I pointed out in my previous post. This is about determining the source of spiritual gifts. Remember that the gift of tongues was an issue in Corinth along with other gifts. Paul was merely saying that those speaking by the spirit who can confess Jesus as the Christ prove themselves as being from God. False spirits, demonic in nature, cannot make that confession.

    So its not unregenerate people who can't say the words, "Jesus is Lord." Its demonic spirits that cannot and will not say such things. Again, let me say applying passages having to do with determining if someones spiritual gifting is legit to determining whether someone has the Spirit before he believes and is saved is very poor hermenuetics.

    Scripture is very clear that people had the ability to believe Jesus was divine and even say so before the Spirit of God had come to them.
    </font>[/QUOTE]you are correct that the passage is about spiritual gifts but the point is made that no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit of God. do you believe that a person without God revealing Jesus as Lord would believe on Him as Lord?
     
  10. KayDee

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    You're right. Hearing the Word is not regeneration. When the Gospel is proclaimed by written or oral word, the Lord regenerates those who have been chosen before time began, so then he is able to believe with that new heart and be saved. The order is:

    1. Chosen
    2. Hear the Gospel
    3. Regeneration
    4. Belief
    5. Salvation
    6. Sanctification
    7. Glorification

    Regeneration is not the same as hearing or salvation. That's Bible. ;)

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  11. Skandelon

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    No, that point has not been made. As I stated, this is not about an person's ability to say "Jesus is Lord." Jesus taught that many who cry out "LORD, LORD" will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Its not about the ability to say it, its about spiritual gifts and determining if they are from God or not. That's it, if you apply it to anything else its mere speculation because you cannot possibly read Paul's mind at that point. That is why following the rules of hermeneutics is so important.

    No. God must reveal Jesus as Lord before someone can believe it. That is what the gospel is for.
     
  12. Yelsew2

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    You're right. Hearing the Word is not regeneration. When the Gospel is proclaimed by written or oral word, the Lord regenerates those who have been chosen before time began, so then he is able to believe with that new heart and be saved. The order is:

    1. Chosen
    2. Hear the Gospel
    3. Regeneration
    4. Belief
    5. Salvation
    6. Sanctification
    7. Glorification

    Regeneration is not the same as hearing or salvation. That's Bible. ;)

    In His Grace
    KayDee
    </font>[/QUOTE]And, "Whosoever will" has the ability to believe, and thereby become a "child of God". Faith cometh by hearing and Hearing by the Word of God. Regeneration is being "born again", and being born again cannot happen until one "dies to self". Then one can be and is reborn in Christ through FAITH in God.
     
  13. massdak

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    No, that point has not been made. As I stated, this is not about an person's ability to say "Jesus is Lord." Jesus taught that many who cry out "LORD, LORD" will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Its not about the ability to say it, its about spiritual gifts and determining if they are from God or not. That's it, if you apply it to anything else its mere speculation because you cannot possibly read Paul's mind at that point. That is why following the rules of hermeneutics is so important.

    No. God must reveal Jesus as Lord before someone can believe it. That is what the gospel is for.
    </font>[/QUOTE]what about people who hear a false gospel is that unfair, it would seem that they have not be given the chance to believe in the real Jesus. what is your excuse for this?
     
  14. Skandelon

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    I address this more fully in the other thread, but I will just say that I believe people are held accountable according to what has been revealed. Like the Jews and Gentiles in Romans 1 and 2 each group is judged based upon the revelation given them. It will be the same, IMO, for those who haven't heard the gospel. They will still stand without exuse because of the natural revelation and their conscience if they have refused to have regard for what God has revealed to them.

    I don't believe God will hold man accountable to anything that He has not revealed to them, otherwise they WOULD have an excuse.
     
  15. massdak

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    I address this more fully in the other thread, but I will just say that I believe people are held accountable according to what has been revealed. Like the Jews and Gentiles in Romans 1 and 2 each group is judged based upon the revelation given them. It will be the same, IMO, for those who haven't heard the gospel. They will still stand without exuse because of the natural revelation and their conscience if they have refused to have regard for what God has revealed to them.

    I don't believe God will hold man accountable to anything that He has not revealed to them, otherwise they WOULD have an excuse.
    </font>[/QUOTE]i believe you try to use human reasoning for what you think justice should be like. man is already in condemnation with God. God has shown mercy to those He chose to show mercy to. i do not believe God owes man any chance for redemption based on a probation type of man made system to see who will have faith or not. that is another issue that could seem unfair, why does some have a more innate ability to believe while other do not.
     
  16. Yelsew2

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    If Man is already in condemnation with God, then what was served by the Atonement?

    What did Jesus mean in John 3:18 when he said that believers are not condemned but unbelievers are self condemned?

    Everyone has the same ability to believe. There are no differences among men! However, It is the object of belief that makes the difference in ones belief. The church has done an exceedingly poor job in expaining what belief in God is all about, and consequently most people believe they will lose the freedoms they have under God's grace if they believe in God. So, many simply will not risk that. Your rhetorical question is just like these questions:

    Why do some smoke and others do not?
    Why do some have an ability to play basketball while others do not?
    Why do some have the ability to use computers while others do not?
    Why are some Software writers and some are hardware fixers?

    Apparently you did not think your question through, or you would not have asked it.
     
  17. massdak

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    no, you as an arminian should ask that question and then you maybe able to resolve it by scripture. if you believe some have an innate ability to believe then it is something that man has inside that gives him faith to believe.
    Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    that scripture deals with the fact that it is God who shows mercy.
    faith is from God and man is against God untill God draws him. God is the one that gives grace. mans trust in God is the evidence that God has changed the heart of man.
    man will not change his own heart to love God that is scripture.
    you should think that through
     
  18. Skandelon

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    We all use human reasoning. We take what we read in scripture and we do what we can to honestly interpret it and we apply human reason. You used reason to come up with this post. Human reason is a part of our God given capasity. Your system doesn't leave much room for it in the process of salvation but the Bible does when the Lord through his prophet calls us to "come let us reason together."


    Yes, and God provided the means to escape that condemnation through the cross of Christ by faith.

    Yes, first to the Jew and then the Gentile.

    This is not about what God OWES us. He owes no man. It's about what he offers to all men. He offers Grace to all through faith. He shows mercy to all men. Romans 11:32

    Sounds like an argument from human reason to me. ;)

    I don't care about what seems fair or unfair. I care about what the scripture reveals. I don't object to Calvinism because it is unfair, I object to it because I don't believe it is what scripture teaches. I was a Calvinist for quite some time and I was willing to accept that God chose certain people and condemned others because that is what I believed scripture was teaching. Now I don't believe scripture is teaching that because I feel that I better understand the context of those passages that once convinced me to be a Calvinist.
     
  19. Yelsew2

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    I stated to you before, in a post that Gina L deleted because she thought it inflammatory, that you would be wise to refrain from labeling me an "Arminian".

    I am not an Arminian, nor am I Roman, nor am I Wesleyan, nor am I "___________", what ever you may desire to label me. And I take serious offence at limited thinkers who insist on attaching labels to others. Therefore, Please do not do so henceforth!

    There are many who post here who have declared themselves to be Calvinist, Arminian, Baptist, etc. Since they so define themself, it is fair and legal to use their chosen labels when addressing them.

    I am Christian! You will notice that Christian is not a compound phrase! It is a single, stand-alone title. You may call me Christian.
     
  20. massdak

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    I stated to you before, in a post that Gina L deleted because she thought it inflammatory, that you would be wise to refrain from labeling me an "Arminian".

    I am not an Arminian, nor am I Roman, nor am I Wesleyan, nor am I "___________", what ever you may desire to label me. And I take serious offence at limited thinkers who insist on attaching labels to others. Therefore, Please do not do so henceforth!

    There are many who post here who have declared themselves to be Calvinist, Arminian, Baptist, etc. Since they so define themself, it is fair and legal to use their chosen labels when addressing them.

    I am Christian! You will notice that Christian is not a compound phrase! It is a single, stand-alone title. You may call me Christian.
    </font>[/QUOTE]i did not see the post that was deleted, i will try to remember so as to not call you an arminian. but you are clearly representing the arminian side of debate. and as for calling you a Christian i can not do so given your post earlier in this thread if this quote represents your heart held belief as to a statement of your kind of faith then why should Christians give you a false assurance. your quote as follows&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    in which kaydee rightfully responds&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

    [/QUOTE] One does not have to submit to the teachings or do any bidding to be saved...that would be a salvation by works.

    KayDee [/QUOTE]

    unless you can clear up the meaning of your quote, please do not ask me to label you as you wish.
     

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