Can an Evolutionist be Saved?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mike Gascoigne, Dec 13, 2004.

  1. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne
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    Can an Evolutionist be Saved?

    Yes, of course, God can save to the uttermost, but the question is, can an evolutionist be saved and continue to be an evolutionist? Some people might think it's an arrogant question, considering that about half of all Christians believe in evolution. Am I denouncing half the church as unsaved?

    Romans 6:23 tells us that "the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". If there were millions of years of evolution before Adam and Eve sinned, it means death was in the world already and it has got nothing to do with sin. If the wages of sin is not death, then the gift of God is not eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Instead, the Gospel is reduced to a lifestyle issue and there are many evangelical preachers who tell us about how Jesus can sort out our messed up lives. It's true, Jesus does sort out our messed up lives, but he does a lot more than that. He saves us from death to life. If people are only saved from one lifestyle to another, are they really saved?

    I have discussed this question in more detail in my book Impossible Theology: The Christian Evolutionist Dilemma.

    Mike Gascoigne
    Anno Mundi Books
     
  2. James_Newman

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    I don't believe that evolution is compatible at all with biblical Christianity. However, I think you can be saved and be wrong.

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    If the creation account is some kind of allegory and death is not indeed the result of sin, then doesn't that make God a liar?
     
  3. Phillip

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    I agree with James, a person can be completely "ignorant" of the creation process, but be saved, as long as they meet the New Testament requirements."

    This may be true, but look at the requirement for salvation. Does it mention any other beliefs, other than we are sinners in need to repentence and that Jesus Christ gave His life to save us for those sins? I used to believe in the gap theory, not evolution; however, to fit in old earth and dinos, but after understanding death could not have happened, I realized I had to be wrong.

    I am seeing more and more conditions added to salvation. One pastor told me yesterday that he knew of pastors now saying that if you are not pre-mil, then you could not be saved. Why?


    Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
    Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
    Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."

    ESV

    Does this put a limitation on the way Genesis is interpreted? What if a person doesn't even know about the creation account, can he/she be saved?

    Does this say: "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
    .....only if you believe in Genesis is six actual days with no gap, etc.?"

    Now, please, do NOT misquote me. These ideas are obviously wrong to those who have studied the Bible, BUT, are they necessary elements of the salvation process itself?
     
  4. James_Newman

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    do you suppose that some Christians are unwilling to espouse a belief in a literal creation account because they do not want to appear foolish in the eyes of men? If the world says evolution, and the bible says creation, who should we agree with?
     
  5. Phillip

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    That is possible, but if it is true, that Christian is obviously ashamed of his/her faith. But, then again Peter denied Jesus and was forgiven. It certainly does not make it right.

    I think this type of "conforming to social patterns" to be more common than we think. And, I'm sure that creationism is not the only item not discussed. How often are people simply afraid to even talk to someone about their salvation?

    Just my humble thoughts on the matter. I am guilty, too. Not necessarily creation, but trying to conform at times when I know people are watching me.
     
  6. Johnv

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    The C/E arguement notwithstanding, I think you hit the scriptural nail on the head. Regardless of the scriptural topic, one's salvation is not contingent upon "getting everything right" as far as scriptural understanding. Otherwise, we'd have to say that everyone who is KJVO isn't saved, or everyone who thinks that a woman can preach isn't saved, or everyone who thinks women must cover their heads isn't saved, etc etc etc.
     
  7. Phillip

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    Johnv, I'm not arguing with you at all, I agree with what you say 100%. But, I want to add that I feel that a true Christian who studies his/her Bible more and more will come to an anomoly that will have to be satisfied in their mind regarding the C/E issue. Not that it will cause any damage to their salvation, it may cause some confusion if nothing else.
     
  8. Johnv

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    I suppose that's a matter of personal opinion. I was a staunch YEC'er. I enrolled in bible college and, sometime afterwards, after much personal and scholastic scriptural study, came to a conclusion differently than you. I consider myself somewhat biblically learned, though one can always, imo, study scripture more.

    Though you and I respectfully disagree on the topic of Genesis 1, I think we agree in our concern about those of differing views making blanket statements about the other: YEC'er should not presume that, just because someone espouses a non-YEC view, he/she "does not believing the Bible". Neither should a non-YEC'er make such an unrighteous presumption about a YEC'er.
     
  9. Phillip

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    I agree Johnv, maybe I was incorrect in my statements. What I meant was that as somebody studies the Bible in more detail that is an issue that they will have to deal with personally, but it will not be an issue that threatens their salvation in any form or shape.

    Does that make more sense?
     
  10. Bro Tony

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    The discussion has changed topics. The topic is evolution not young earth or old earth. Just because someone is old earth does not mean they believe in evolution. I might think they are wrong, but it is a huge leap from old earth to evolutionist or theistic-evolution, both of which are completely contrary to the Genesis account. You may be able to make old earth fit into the Genesis account you can't evolution.

    Bro Tony
     
  11. Craigbythesea

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    A Plea for Honesty and God-Given Common Sense

    I am greatly offended to find Baptists teaching this nonsense that is 100% contrary to fact and in so doing bringing a reproach upon the people of God. I live in a very academic community and many of my neighbors have earned multiple doctorates from prestigious universities around the world, and at least one of them is a Nobel Prize Laureate. And in my community, and many other communities around the world, the adjective “Baptist” is everyday becoming more and more a pejorative synonym for gross ignorance and cognitive inability. Consequently the Baptist churches in my neighborhood are finding it necessary to remove the descriptive adjective “Baptist” from their buildings, and several have already found it necessary to officially withdraw from their denominations, not because of the reproach of Gospel, but because of the reproach of gross ignorance and cognitive inability on the part of many Baptists.

    Folks, you are no longer living in the dark ages—this is the 21st century. Even the youngest of school children know that the dinosaurs, saber tooth tigers, and hairy mammoths died long before Adam was created. And who would be so ridiculous as to say that when Adam and his wife stepped upon insects and squashed the life out of them that the insects did not die unless they got stepped on after Adam ate the forbidden fruit!

    There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the doctrine of original sin that says that the dinosaurs all got raptured to heaven but left their bones on the earth the become fossilized! The plain, simple, obvious and undeniable fact is that millions upon millions of dinosaurs and other animals died before Adam was even created. And for Baptist to deny the facts and teach a lie is exceedingly pernicious and reprehensible.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. LadyEagle

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    Sorry, craig, I'm not impressed. Neither was the Apostle Paul.


    Romans 1:[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


    And that is a pity and the fruit of secular humanism/evolution.

    The book of Job describes dinosaurs and Job lived after Adam.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6694344/

    I post this, not for the 35,000-year-old figure (which I disagree with because the earth is not that old), but merely to demonstrate that a flute was created from a mammoth's ivory tusk, and therefore, mammoths lived right alongside humans. Therefore, some of your academic neighbors and their peers will need need to rewrite some of their theories or find this recent discovery is a fraud or a mistake. [​IMG]

    [ December 13, 2004, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]
     
  13. rjprince

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    CraigBS,

    It is certainly true that many people do indeed speak from gross ignorance. We Baptists do not have a monopoly there.

    There are also many PHD's who hold to the Biblical account of creation. Higher education does not always lead to rejection of Genesis 1-11 and gross ignorance does not always lead to it's acceptance.

    I certainly do respect your level of education and your obvious intelligence. Please do not imply that I am an idiot simply on the basis that I do accept a literal creation account. Sooner or later, I will probably give you a much better reason!

    In HIS service, and yours,
    RJPrince
     
  14. Phillip

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    Amen RJprince,

    I have been around scientists and in engineering all of my life. You would be amazed at how many are creationist today.

    You do NOT have to be ashamed of your beliefs. If the Bible says it, you better believe it. It you change it to an allegory, just because you are embarassed by brainwashed Phds who live in their ivory towers being taught theories that have never been proven as fact, then it sounds like you might be walking on thin ice.

    Didn't Jesus mention something about being ashamed of him. If we just flush away the first 11 chapters of the Bible, then we don't even need the rest. Why bother going to church.

    Yes, I went through many years believing that stuff, until I studied, and studied and studied and realized; whoa, science does NOT have to disagree with the Bible, only our theories do.

    In order for evolution to work, you must have billions of years. (It won't work anyway, but don't you see that they are working from a conlusion, not the other way around.) That is bad science, so please don't insinuate that someone who believes that God can do things in a supernatural manner without the laws of physics as "ignorant". The typical scientist who accepts evolution does NOT accept a God who can create things supernaturally. We do. So, if you want to be ashamed, go ahead, I will not be.
     
  15. rjprince

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    I am not ashamed! Me neither!
     
  16. Phillip

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    Maybe you need to remove the Baptist sign from your own title?

    What does the Bible say about the way the Christians will be treated in the final days, by the wise people who are blinded by their own secular theories.

    Not one of these "prestigious" colleges teach a God that is omnipotent and can create a universe without having to resort to evolution.

    Jesus was ridiculed by the scribes and pharasees who were the "brains" of his age.

    What does Jesus say about being ashamed of following Him. Don't you think that just might refer to His Word also?

    If you cannot accept Genesis 1 - 11 you might as well not bother going to church, because it is all for nothing.

    I would rather be ridiculed by the world than be ashamed of the Holy Scriptures, Sorry Craigbythesea, but we really have a problem with this one.

    If you cannot accept an omnipotent God that can create without the use of physical laws that He Himself created, then you have a lot to learn and the prestigious Phd's isn't going to buy a single one of those high-tech professors a place in God's Kingdom. [​IMG]
     
  17. Craigbythesea

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    The fact that mammoths lived along side humanoids is known by every elementary school teacher in the civilized world. The Hairy Mammoth, Mammathus primigenius, did not become extinct tell about 10,000 years ago.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. James_Newman

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    The fact that mammoths lived along side humanoids is known by every elementary school teacher in the civilized world. The Hairy Mammoth, Mammathus primigenius, did not become extinct tell about 10,000 years ago.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]They have actually found them frozen in glaciers and have been able to tell the exact time and date of their incarceration by checking their Rolex's. Isn't science awesome?
     
  19. Craigbythesea

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    "Many" would be a bit of an exaggeration! And the few that do hold to the Biblical account of creation have Ph.D.'s in fields unrelated to evolutionary biology and geology. But that means nothing! We all know that the dinosaurs all died before Adam sinned. That fact is not subject to dispute!

    [​IMG]
     
  20. izzaksdad

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    CBTS,

    You make an interesting statement in your opening comments: "100% contrary to fact." The bottom line is that our faith in large part is based on what many would and do consider contrary to fact. Most would say that a sea parting for a million people to cross over, and then supernaturally joining together again is contrary to the laws of physics. Factually and naturally it is an impossibility-as well as an axe head floating/swimming, 5 loaves and 2 fish feeding thousands, Someone walking on water, etc.

    Your obvious affection for your education has seemingly outran your ability to excercise the faith aspect of our belief system.

    There are some truths taught in the rooms of primary Sunday School that should never be forgotten- like it or not. This may not sit well with you, but truth nonetheless.
     

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