Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Jun 30, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    By Arminian I refer to the particular doctrinal distinctive which states that a Christian may indeed become lost again.

    I know that they can have assurance of their salvation- that they can know that if they die right now they will go to heaven. And I know that many of them do not believe that sin is that which causes one to lose their salvation but rather a forfeiture of faith.

    But here is the dilemma with the doctrine that teaches one can lose his salvation. He CANNOT KNOW that he will make it to heaven since he may lose his salvation before he dies. If it is possible to lose it then assurance of heaven is illogical.

    Here is the logical conclusion. There is not a Free Will Baptist, Pentecostal, or Methodist on earth who ascribes to his stated theology who has any real assurance that he will make it to heaven.

    Is that not disturbing to any of you?
     
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Disturbing ?
    Not if one's hope is pinned on Christ instead of his theology, soteriology or whatever else kind of -ogy he carries.
    Not if one is convinced that he is truly a sinner in, out, top, bottom, front and back and pleads the blood.
    Not if one has really placed his eternity in the hands of an offended but merciful God.
    Therein is assurance, the mercy of God.

    As far as I am concerned, if I close my eyes on this earth and open it not in heaven but elsewhere and it is true that we have our memory and intellect intact, then I know that there is only one to blame: me.

    If I do open my eyes in the presence of my Savior and King, then I know that there is only one to credit: Him.

    So, you see, friend, in the final tally, present knowledge gives us peace and worship.
    But for ALL His people, in the know or not, His blood alone guarantees their eternity.
     
    #2 pinoybaptist, Jun 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2010
  3. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus Christ and HIS righteousness." I don't build my hope of salvation on myself and MY righteousness, but on what Jesus did on the cross when He said, "It is finished"--meaning that God's plan for our redemption was finished. There was and is nothing more to be done but to accept God's FREE gift of forgiveness, salvation, and eternal life.

    I feel sorry for those who don't have the assurance that they can KNOW without a shadow of doubt that they have eternal life. If I judged whether or not I am saved by my life, I would never be sure. However, I AM sure because Jesus gave His life, shed His blood, and rose from the tomb to buy our salvation and eternal life.
     
  4. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is an excellent post on assurance. I have never understood how someone can go day to day wondering if they will or will not slip out (or into) salvation depending on that days thoughts or actions. On top of that, add the fact that one has no idea when the Lord will call him or her home. What a tangled mess.

    To the author of the thread, welcome to BB. I have never heard the word Arminian used exclusively for this belief. It usually encompasses doctrines of sovereignty vs free will.
     
  5. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you get right down to the facts it makes no difference if Arminian or Calvinist. If the classic Arminian view is correct I have a strong assurance that Heaven will be my home and the truth holds for a Calvinist believer. If the Calvinist POV is correct then heaven will be the home of both the Arminian and Calvinist regardless.
     
    #5 thegospelgeek, Jun 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2010
  6. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    For a second post, I would suggest that you begin with another subject. Seriously brother, this subject gets hit pretty hard on these boards.
     
  7. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very well put.
     
  8. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Scripture

    I just compare what people say to the bible, but I do not study a piticular religion or belief system. I don't believe anyone who puts their trust in Jesus for salvation can lose their salvation. Our hope is in Jesus not our selves.

    Hebrews 3:12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

    1 John 2:

    Warning Against Antichrists
    18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
    20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[ Some manuscripts and you know all things ]22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

    24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.


    Hebrews 6:
    4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


    How can we go back to the person we once was when we know what Christ did for us?
     
  9. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well said!!!!
     
  10. valiant4truth

    valiant4truth
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2010
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think that the post raises a good question. It may be an issue that some hold close to their chest, but in my opinion, the ideas that are closest to us should be examined the most carefully.

    It may be true as some have said that this issue gets hit hard on these boards. It is an issue that has been hit hard for five centuries. That in and of itself doesn't demand that we cease all discussion of it. It has been discussed hotly because of it's importance and implications.

    I am convinced personally that every soul born in grace shall ultimately end in glory. To say that a regenerate person can perish finally in the flames of hell is to raise serious questions concerning God's invincible power, His atoning provision, and His effectual purpose.

    The absolute security of the believer is not merely a "Baptist distinctive" but a biblical doctrine. May God be praised for His matchless grace.
     
  11. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    The Free Will Baptist treatise admits that one's final salvation is not "certain" that all he can really have is "strong grounds to hope".

    I have no desire to offend any one. I honestly think that Arminians are by and large sincere, passionate people who love God and will be in heaven. But I don't think they have thought their doctrine through to it's logical end.

    Follow these premises:

    1. In order to KNOW that one will go to heaven he must KNOW that NOTHING can keep him from heaven.

    2. Losing one's salvation will keep one from heaven.

    3. Therefore, if one believes he can lose his salvation then he cannot KNOW that heaven is his home.

    The problem is that, though you KNOW that you are going to heaven NOW, you don't know that you will endure in faith and keep from falling some time in the future. If your faith does fail then you will not go to heaven according to Arminian doctrine.

    Therefore, since you don't know when you will die and you don't know for sure that your faith will not fail before you die, then you cannot KNOW that you will make it to heaven.

    This is not a personal assault- it is an examination of this Arminian tenet.
     
  12. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    Suppose someone has faith and believes he is a True Christian. Two or more years later, he stops believing.

    Most of those who believe in eternal security, will say he was not really a True Christian in the first place or he would not have stopped believing.

    Those who believe a Christian can forfeit their salvation, will say he decided to stop believing and forfeited his salvation.

    Both those who believe in eternal security and those who believe a Christian can forfeit their salvation, are equally sure of their salvation by faith.

    How does an eternal security believer know he is really a True Christian? By faith.

    How does a non-eternal security believer know he will not forfeit hs salvation? By faith.

    Both are equally secure in their salvation. The uncertainies others can see in thier beliefs are about the same.

    However, the false information among eternal security believers about others not being as sure of their salvation, has been around for many years and will probably continue to persist.
     
  13. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,934
    Likes Received:
    45
    That would be biblically impossible. True believers don't stop believing like running out of gas. The Holy Spirit is the one confirming who Jesus is....not flesh and blood.
     
  14. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eternal Security

    We have one who trusted in Christ, because of his friend and it looks like he is happier. So he wants to follow Jesus to. His life was going fine until he lost his Job and then he walked away and never came back to Christ. Does this guy have eternal security? We would really like for him to especially if they are close friend or a relative.

    I have no doubt that I am going to heaven, I trust in Christ to finish what he started in me.
    I am concerned about others. I personal will not go around and teach to trust in their eternal security, but to trust in Christ for their eternal security.

    We are not to encourage others to trust in their eternal security, but we are told encourage other to trust, believe in Christ and not to have an unbelieving heart. We are to be one encouraging each other to believe in Jesus.
     
  15. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not taken as a personal assault. What I was saying before is that Truth is not dependent on my doctrine or yours. If the Free Will baptist are correct or incorrect does not change what is.

    The difference in What we believe and what most Calvinist think we believe is substantial. We do not believe nor teach that one is saved, kept, or lost by works. What we do believe is that one can abandon, or make shipwrech, of their faith. No amount of debate or argument will change my beleif or yours.

    My point is the Truth will not change based on your or my beleif of it either way.
     
  16. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I will use an extereme example to explain;

    An Islamic terrorist believes he will go to heaven with Alla when he bombs a bus and kills himself as a martyr. If you ask him about it before he will say that he "knows" he is going to heaven. He is not.

    Now I am not saying that anyone who says they know is a terrorist. What I am saying is that because you say you know, if you are correct, then you also know that Arminian Brothers and Sisters are also going. Because I say I have a "strong hope", makes me no more or less likely to arrive at my eternal home.

    If I am correct, we both end up in the same place if we endure. If I do not endure, the Arminians will say i departed from the faith, while the Calvinist say I never had it to begin with. The end result is the same, eternal damnation. The only difference is our definitions and explanations of what occured.
     
  17. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    Perhaps you missed my point.

    How do you know that you are not one of those who believes now that he is a True Christian, but in the future you will not stop trusting Christ which would mean you just thought you were a True Christian?

    The Arminian knows that he will continue trusting Christ the same way you believe you are a True Christian now. By Faith.

    Arminians see the same uncertainty in your belief as you see in their belief.

    The only difference is terminalogy, definitions and a play on words.
     
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    You are not reading my posts thoroughly I think.

    I have said that I know that someone who believes you can lose your salvation can have ASSURANCE that he is saved- now.

    What he CANNOT know is that he will make it to heaven in the future.
    He cannot know this because of two uncertainties.
    1. Because he does not know when he will die.
    2. Because he does not know that he will endure in faith until the day he dies.

    Every person who believes one can lose his salvation believes that HE can lose his salvation. He does not know FOR CERTAIN that he will not so he CANNOT KNOW that heaven is his home.

    This is not about assurance. It's about whether or not a person who believes he can lose his salvation can honestly say-

    "I KNOW that I will be in heaven one day!"


    Help me to understand how ANYONE can KNOW they are going to be in heaven if they think it is possible for them to lose their salvation.
     
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Certainly. And I have absolutely no reason to doubt your genuine conversion therefore I think you will definitely wind up in heaven whether you are sure you will or not.

    What this thread is about is KNOWING that you will make it to heaven. It is not about assurance of present salvation. It is about assurance that you will absolutely be in heaven one day.

    Do you admit that you do not KNOW that you are going to make it?

    Now keep in mind that I know that you do not believe in works salvation. I understand very well what FWB's believe.

    What I am asking you is- Can you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you will be in heaven with Christ one day? Do you KNOW that you will not be in hell for eternity?
     
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8


    Sure. This thread is not about assurance of present salvation, though. It is about assurance of future salvation.

    Can the Arminian have any real assurance of future salvation?
    Or would he have to say- "I really don't know that I will not be in hell a hundred years from now."

    If this is the case, then no Arminian, regardless of the fact that he has assurance of present salvation, can KNOW that Heaven is his home.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...