Can anybody prove?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Chemnitz, Jul 22, 2002.

  1. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
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    Can anybody on this board prove beyond a reasonable doubt the church/congregation/denomination they belong to is the church formed in Acts?

    I sincerly doubt that anybody can accomplish this task, particularly after seeing the argument occur somany times on this board just between the Baptists and the Catholics.

    This is by no means a comprehensive list but I believe that the early church believed the following.

    The OT was ultimately about Jesus.
    The presence of the Trinity.
    That Jesus is the Son of God.
    Salvation by Grace through Faith not by works.
    The Death and Ressurrection of Jesus Christ.
    That Baptism does convey the forgiveness of sins by joining us to Christ and is a work of God not man.
    That the Body and Blood are truly present with the bread and wine.

    Like I said this is not a comprehensive list but I think it is long enough to prove my point. You guys probably noticed a distinct lack of Bible verses. I left them out on purpose. My logic is this the first books of the NT canon did not start appearing until ~20 years after pentecost, so since they did not have anything beyond the OT to cite, I can not place my self in their shoes and still cite the NT.

    Now the storm has passed I can finish the post.

    As you may/have already guested this is a very condensed version of the doctrine of the Lutheran church. Now while I may be able to convince some people that is the beliefs held by the early NT church, I do not have high hopes on this board. To do this I would of course use Scripture to make my points (I do believe that God left us the written Word as the Guide) but I am not trying to convince anybody at this point that the LCMS is the direct descendant of the NT church so there is no need to provide scripture in the above list. Now the very fact that none can without a doubt prove that they are the direct descendant of the early church means that all churches/congregations are denominations or divisions of the church. Which of course means that no one person can claim that they are not a member of a denomination. To illustrate my point I believe that the Lutheran church is the closest to the early church which means all others are divisions against (for lack of better word) the true teachings. Now there are those who belong to the so called non-denominational churches. These churches are a denomination unto themselves even though they are composed of only one congregation, because while they believe they are the direct descendant of the early church by way of beliefs they still do not find agreement with other congregations. The best they can hope to claim is that they do not belong to a major denomination, because they do belong to a denomination regardless of whether or not it has an official name.

    [ July 22, 2002, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
     
  2. DHK

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    First, Chem., that looks more like a statement of your faith, not what the early church believed. You will have to back up those beliefs with Scripture. We all don't share the same beliefs, though we all claim that we believe the same as the early church did. I am thinking primarily of your last two points.
    DHK
     
  3. Brother Adam

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    And therein lies the problem. You formed your list based on your own interpertation of history and scripture. I too could make a list like yours based on what I believed the NT church believed about baptism and so forth.

    Remember that while they had only the Old Testament as far as writings, they did walk in the same time and breathed the same air as Christ did. They heard many more words of Christ than we can read. Because of this, we trust the writings of Paul, Timothy, and so forth as what the new church believed.

    I too seriously doubt anyone, even Frank can without any doubt whatso ever prove that they follow/are the exact same church as the New Testament with the great extent of time that has passed and the new culture that we live in. It's a fight that has been fought for well over a thousand years now. I don't think anyone on this board will be able to win it.

    Praise God for the rain! We did today. Everywhere all you see except at the country clubs we drive by is brown grass. It has been so hot and so dry that the rain is a welcome relief.

    Bro. Adam

    [ July 22, 2002, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Brother Adam ]
     
  4. Frank

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    Adam:
    The real problem is all men are not disposed to accepting the truth. Jesus said we can and must know his will. In John 8: 32, the Bible says," and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. In Eph. 5:17, Wherefore be ye not unwise but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
    The pages of inspiration teach us we can and must know his will. Therefore one can and must know about his called out people. In Acts 2:47, the Bible says , " praising God and having favor with all the people and the Lord added to the church( the called out people) daily such as were saved( daily those being saved). In Acts 2:42, the Bible says, " and they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine, fellowship, breaking of bread and prayers." To answer the poll question, YES, one can and must know if he is a part of the church for the church is the saved and the Bible says salvatuion is IN Christ, not outside. II Tim. 2:10. In that book, chapter, and verse the Bible says," Therefore, I endure all things for th elects sake that they may also obtain the salvation which is IN CHRIST JESUS with eternal glory." The Bible teaches us we can know we are saved and a part of the church of Acts 2,as she is the only one found in the New Testament. How, the same way they did in the first century, FOLLOW THE APOSTOLIC EXAMPLE. Acts 2:42.
    Paul said, be ye followers of me as I am also of Christ. I Cor. 11:1. Notice the HOW of verse 1 found in verse Two. I quote, "Now I praise you brethren that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances as I have delivered them. How Paul? KEEP THE ORDINANCES AS I HAVE DELIVERED THEM.
    My rational conclusion is that if one follows what the Lord taught through the apostles, he can know he is In Christ, his church, and on the way to heaven.

    While this is not exhaustive, It most definitely answers the Poll question in the AFFIRMATIVE.
    I must limit my reponse to the question for the sake of those who do not wish to search,try, test the scriptures themselves. This being the case, I have quoted them for those people to read without opening their own Bible.
     
  5. DHK

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    What you have described to us is a "works" salvation, which the Apostles definitely did not teach. They taught that: "by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Salvation is by faith, not by works.
    DHK
     
  6. Brother Adam

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    Amen to DHK

    Ephes. 2:8-9
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Romans 3:23-26
    For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    Bro. Adam
     
  7. Chemnitz

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    Updated original post.

    Just from what I have seen so far I think has proved my point.
     
  8. Brother Adam

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    To add:

    Frank, thank you for posting and relating your points directly to the scripture you posted. Your points become clearer when you talk about the scripture instead of just making a list, often which a good deal is not related directly to what you are trying to say.

    Next:

    There is a difference between being saved and being a member of the Body of Christ, and belonging to a particular church that teaches a particular doctrine.

    We are not saved by following the sanctifying instructions of the Bible. We are saved through the justification of the blood of the cross that is applied to our sins.

    I don't think anyone here would disagree with following what the Bible teaches. I believe each of us try to do that to the best of our limited human ability along with the guiding of the Holy Spirit each and every day of our lives.

    Yet it remains that our interpertations of scripture will differ. The important thing is to the degree which they differ. To argue about having instruments in church is one thing, a detail really, compared to discussing the salvation of our souls. On that, all Christians should be able to agree.

    Bro. Adam

    Romans 10:9 (KJV)
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
     
  9. Brother Adam

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    What I find most remarkable Chemnitz, is that we are all sitting at our computers convincing each other that we belong church that has the closest doctrine to the early church, when in fact most of us here are saved, and we should be out there on the Infidel forum discussing salvation with the few of them there that may have hearts that are open to the gospel, or hearts that the Lord wishes to unharden.

    Bro. Adam
     
  10. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
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    To be honest, I think as far as the internet goes, witnessing is about as effective as slaming your head against the wall. Mainly because it lacks the personal attachment. It is much harder for an unbeliever to confront and attack the Gospel and the Word of God in person and not to have the Word and the Gospel directly confront them. Online it is all to easy for them to disregard the Word. I have tried working with people online and just like this board most are just interested in arguing :( . I'll be honest I enjoy a good debate thats one of the reasons I like to hang out here.
     
  11. Brother Adam

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    Interesting illustration. I am thankful that the Lord has used the internet for some good. I have seen several people come out of bondage of several different sins (sexual sins, drug abuse, alcoholism) through the godly counsoling of others.

    I think that our arguments serve a good purpose in forcing us into the Word and keeping us strong when the opposing side truly does attack.

    Bro. Adam
     
  12. Chemnitz

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    I am glad you have been blessed to see the positive side :cool: . I admit most of my experience is with the so called intellectual athiest/agnostic who seem to only want to confront us with supposed contradictions in scripture :rolleyes: .
     
  13. Frank

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    Adam:
    II Tim. 2: 10 says one must be IN Christ to be saved. Acts 2:47 says the saved ARE the church the called out people. Furthermore, The Bible teaches us Christ will deliver up the kingdom to God in the end. Who is the kingdom,according to the Bible the saved or the unsaved? In Col. 1:12,13, the Bible says,"Giving thanks unto the father which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of his son. I quote I Cor. 15:24." The cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom of God evn to the father; when he shall have put down all rule and alll authority and power. SEE also Dan.2:44-47, Is.2:1-4, Mat. 16:18;19:23,24, John 3:3,5, Eph.5:23-27, Col. 1:18, Eph. 1:22,23, Rev. 21:1-3; Mat. 25:1-13, Rev.18:23,24; 21: 9.
    Furthermore,Roms. 10:10 is Not all a man has to do to be saved. Jesus said, in John 8:24 I said therfore unto you, that ye sahll die in your sins if ye believe not that I am he ye shall die in your sins." Jesus said in Luke 13:3,5,I tell you nay, but except ye repent ye shal all likewise perish." Jesus did say a man had to confess him, too. You have that correct. Mat. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men , him will I confess before my Father which is in heaven." Jesus said in Mark 16:16," He that believethand is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned." In Acts 2:41, the Bible says." Then that gladly received the word were baptized : and the same day there were ADDED unto them about three thousand souls. In Acts 2:47, the Bible says, praising God nad having favor withallthe people and the Lord ADDED to the churchdailysuchas should be saved."
    It is as simple as sugar, plain as pie, clear as crystal, from the Bible a man can know he is saved and therefore a part of the church as the saved are the church. And that is what the good book says in John 8:24, Lk, 13:3, Mat. 10:32, Mk. 16:16, Acts 2:41;2:47.
    I will close with this from the inspired writings of John. In John 5:13, the Bible says, These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the son of God: that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
    If one cannot know he is saved. he cannot know he is in the church. John says we can KNOW. Jesus says we can Know. JOHN 8:32. Paul says we must KNOW. Eph. 5:17. Unless you are going to contend for salvation out of ignorance, this is the rational conclusion on must make from the Word of God. Oh, by the way, IGNORANCE will not help. In Acts 17;30, the Bible says," And at the times of this ignorance God winkled at but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent."
    The scriptures are all related to answering the question, if one reads the conversions of Acts he finds this to be consistent and harmonious with the evidence posted, no exception!
    Again, due to space limits, and those who refuse to open their own Bible to search, try, examine, I must close.
     
  14. Chemnitz

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    Going by your premise I know that I am saved so that would make the church I attend part of the church formed in Acts, however I think both Adam and DHK know they are saved also and can claim that their church is part of the church formed in Acts. But we including you Frank do not all agree on the teachings of the church so that would mean one of our churches is wrong and therefore is not part of the church formed in Acts. How do you explain that?
     
  15. Frank

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    dhk:
    In I Cor. 11:1,2, Paul the inspired apostle, teaches us to be like him vs.1 he must follow him as he follows Christ vs.1. Paul, the inspired apostle gives us the how to do it in verse 2.Keep the ordinances as I have delivered them. John agrees with Paul in Rev. 1:3. Blessed is he that readeth and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and KEEP those things which are written therein: for the times is at hand. Jesus agrees with Paul and John. He said in John 15:10, If ye KEEP my commandments ye shall abide in my love: even as I have KEPT my father's commandments, and abide in his love. In John 15:14, Jesus said, Ye are my friends IF YE DO whatsoever I command you.
    One does not KNOW God if he does not keep his commandments. In I John 5:2,3 the Bible says, " By this shall all men know that we love the children of God, when we love God and KEEP his commandments. For this is the love of God that we KEEP his commandments and his commandments are not grievous. The Bible teaches me I keep the commandments and ordinnaces of God to Know him, to love him, to be his friend, to be his child.
    The Bible says what it is says and means what it says. For without faith, it is impossible to please him for he that COMETH to God must believe he is and is a rewarder of those who DILLIGENTLY SEEK HIM.Hebs. 11;6. Though he were Son, yet, learned he obedience throught the things which he suffered adn being made perfect he became the author of eternal salvation to all them that OBEY him. God requires faithful obedience of all to be saved. Romans 16:26.In Roms. 16:26, the Bible says,"But now is it made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made KNOWN to ALL NATIONS BY the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH.
     
  16. Frank

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    Chem:
    I have already answered the question in a previous thread. The Bible teaches baptism is essential for the salvation of the sinner. acts 2:38. Do you believe this? Those in Jerusalem did.
    2. Did Jesus provide all we need in the Bible for us to be complete in him unto every good work? II Tim. 3;16,17 DID Jesus commanded ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER WAS TO BE COMMANDED AND OBSERVED. Did Jesus say make a creed to explain what you believe or simply to observe all things whatsoever I have comanded you? Mat. 28:18-20.
    3. Did Jesus give you the name Lutheran? or does the Bible teach the new divine name is Christian? Is. 62:2,Is. 56:5, Acts 11:26. According to the Bible, that is?

    As I stated lastly to you, if you wish to discuss matters of faith with me, you must use the Bible as the standard or I will not respond. I am not interested in Your opinions, feelings or human thoughts a part from the Bible.
     
  17. Chemnitz

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    You must not understand the central idea of this thread. This thread is purely philosophical and does not require Scripture. Now if we want to get down to demanding terms for dialogue, I as thread starter would have priority for setting terms for dialogue. But I am not going to play petty games.

    In using Scripture verses have you convinced one person that you are right? You haven't and it is not because we aren't checking you citations, it is because we believe your interpretation of said citations are wrong. To be quite frank I don't see why you are getting so huffy, I didn't make you respond to this thread in the first place.

    Good grief how many times do I have to answer this question "Did Jesus say make a creed to explain what you believe or simply to observe all things whatsoever I have comanded you? Mat. 28:18-20." I have told you it is neither expressly commanded nor forbidden. We use them as tools in following the command to teach. I am still waiting for you to prove that they are expressly forbidden. BTW Confessions and Creeds helped protect the integrity of the Scriptures when the Nazis attempted to purge Christianity of Jewish tendancies. It was Confessional Lutherans and a great many priests who ended up becoming Martyrs when Hitler and co. tried to eliminate the core source of proclamation, the Bible. So don't think for one minute that just because they are not expressly commanded that they are not useful.

    You know that is the saddest ploy in the book. Anybody who calls himself Lutheran will tell you no Luther didn't die for us. In fact, Luther himself discouraged the use of his name. However, that is unfortunately the name we were labeled under. I accept the label of Lutheran because it makes things much easier because I don't have to go into a great deal of detail all of the time as to what I believe.
    I am not sure as to your point on "or does the Bible teach the new divine name is Christian? Is. 62:2,Is. 56:5, Acts 11:26." Because it is quite clear that the followers of Christ are called Christian in Acts 11:26.

    PS- If you knew anything about Lutherans you wouldn't have to ask about Baptism.
     
  18. Brother Adam

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    Can I borrow your time machine this weekend Frank. I would love the opportunity to go back to biblical times to learn what those in Jerusalem believed. Or are you using your own personal bias towards scripture and calling it absolute Truth again?

    Bro. Adam
     
  19. TheOliveBranch

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    I think what Chem is saying is that the church of Acts didn't have the verses you are using to convince him that you are right. Those letters came after the formation of the churches. It was because, after salvation, their beliefs, customs, misinterpretations, sins, etc. that Paul deemed it necessary to set them straight. They all had their good points, their positive sides, but they had a few flaws to be corrected.
    Didn't each church seem a little different by the words Paul sent to them?
    This shows that there were a lot of ways people worshipped, but we can assume they had the truth in belief.
    Now, as for the present day churches... there are a lot of "off-the-wall" beliefs that are far from the true churches of Acts. I find a very few to parallel them in this present day. Many would like to think of themselves as a true church, but how close are they, really?
     
  20. DHK

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    Yes those things were said, and written in Scripture. But they were written to the saved. Check your references a little closer. Those verses do not apply to the unsaved. If your applying them that way then you taking Scripture out of its context. Do you really believe that Paul meant for the unsaved to "Keep the ordinances as I have delivered them." It was a command given to the BELIEVERS at Corinth.
    Salvation was and still is by faith, not by keeping ordinances. It never was by keeping ordinances. You have the wrong religion, or to be more accurate, the wrong faith.
    DHK

    [ July 23, 2002, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
     

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