Can anyone tell me what you would do?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Pastor Sam, Nov 21, 2003.

  1. Pastor Sam

    Pastor Sam
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    What would you do if the Chairman of Deacons told you that he was having some Deacons meetings concerning you and that you were not invited to the meetings. And lets say that he tells you that the reason you aren't invited is that they are going to be talking about you and your office as Pastor. Lets also suppose you tell him that he shouldn't and can't have any such meetings but he plans to have them anyway. What would you do. A Pastor friend need your scriptural advice.
     
  2. Daniel David

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    First, if there is a sin problem, the pastor needs to be disciplined according to the witness of two or more and in front of the whole church (Matt 18 doesn't apply for elders).

    If there is not a sin problem, those deacons need to be removed for trying to divide the church. If it means they will leave with the majority, so be it. There is a duty to God that the church might be pure.

    Finally, deacons have zero authority in the church. If they make a decision to get rid of the pastor, they need to be openly disciplined.
     
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Agreed, I cannot imagine ANY situation which would require the deacons to meet to talk about the pastor without one talking to him first. The pastor friend needs to biblically confront whoever is calling the meeting about their activity. This is wrong, morally, ethically, and biblically.
     
  4. blackbird

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    These guys are absolutely right! Its cheap church power hungry carnality when the deacon's (1) are calling the shots for the pastor and (2) meet without the consent of the pastor and (3) are not Godly enough to stand "face to face" with the leader-----even Korah, when he confronted Moses, had the guts to confront him--even when Korah was dead wrong and Moses was right!

    Personally, I'd be putting my resume out "bulk mail" if I had a group of deacon's as carnal as described above!

    Brother David
     
  5. mioque

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    I think it was Augustinus, bishop of Hippo Regius who had the following text on his diningtable:"You will not speak about whom is not present at this table".
    I'd say it is time to engrave this text on the table used for the Deacons meetings.
     
  6. Psalm145 3

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    The deacon is obviously out of line. It is the same sin as Korah (Numbers 16), Aaron and Miriam (Numbers 12), and a rebellious wife (1 Peter 3:1-5). Deacons are not rulers.

    What should a godly Pastor do in such a situation? Be patient, and start teaching the deacons and the church biblical relationships between church, pastor, and deacons. Look to God for wisdom and help. Wait on the Lord and follow His leading without fear, He will solve the problem, it is His work and His church, He will be faithful to instruct you about your part in the solution.

    Psalms 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

    Psalms 145:18-19 The Lord is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

    This advice is from a booklet from Way of Life Literature, Advanced Bible Study Series, The New Testament Church, by David Cloud. There is a lot more in the booklet concerning this type of problem with deacons, so it might help to get the booklet.

    WAY OF LIFE ADVANCED BIBLE STUDIES SERIES

    I hope this helps.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    Have a preemptive deacon's meeting and find out who knows and who is involved. If they have issues they want to discuss, talk about them. If they are sowing discord, confront them personally, then take 2 or 3, and then take them before the congregation. To me, preemption is the key. Get out in front of them ...
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Going on the assumption that this meeting is concerning a problem about the pastor, I totally agree with the other gentlemen here. What this person (s) is trying to do is evil and UnGodly and shouldn't be allowed in the Church.

    BUT, I am curious as to whether there is another possible explanation for the meeting which could be positive, such as, they are planning a surprise fellowship to honor the pastor and wife and their ministry, or something like that. Do you know about the nature of the meeting and whether it is positive or negative? Then again, if it were something that was meant to be a surprise, I guess I can't imagine the deacon saying anything to the pastor at all untill the surprise comes. Who knows?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. blackbird

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    I've thought that avenue through, Joseph! The avenue of the surprise fellowship! Its possible that they could be doing that----but----in 15 years of pastoring---I've come to realize that when they DO discuss the surprise---its usually an informal meeting---if they meet at all---usually they just pass the word among themselves during SS or between---

    Your buddy,
    Blackbird
     
  10. MissAbbyIFBaptist

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    Alright, the title of this forum is "Can anyone tell me what you would do?"
    Now, I've never been a pastor, and I never will be {being female kinda disqualifies me!) but unless it's a good thing, like Joseph said, I'd be finding some new deacons!
    Their job is not to go behind the pastor and have secretive meetings. There job is to serve. God made you the shepard of your church, and you will answer for how you lead it. If these deacons are meeting for bad, you need to take control of it.
    But don't leave your church unless God is really leading you to. Stand for the ministry God gave you.
    I've heard a pastor say when Jesus cast out the deamons of the maniac, they inhabited Baptist deacons, and in some churches I don't doubt it!
    Make it REAL plain to them that they are not the one's running the church. You are with God's grace. If they don't like it, they can always resign. If they split and take half the church, you never know! It may just be a good thing. If they aren't for you they are against you. You need to find out who's side they are are on and respond accordingly.
    ~Miss Abby
    Proverbs 31:30 KJB [​IMG]
     
  11. C.S. Murphy

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    Looks like I am in the minority here but I am not so quick to jump this deacon chair. Personally I have been asked to leave one deacon meeting early and the next sunday I discovered it was because a raise was being considered and they wanted to be able to discuss it privately before bringing it before the church. Once I was asked to leave during a business meeting and found out later that it was to gain approval from the church to give me a 500.00 pastor appreciation gift. Now to the negative possibility of this situation. It may be a negative meeting but it could also be a meeting to discuss some aspect of pastoral ministry that some of the deacons are receiving complaints about. For instance two of the deacons approach the chairman and say that they have both heard complaints that the pastor is not visiting as he should. I can see where the chairman might like to meet without the pastor to determine if their is any reason to bring this to the pastors attention or not. Maybe they are meeting to decide if they should step up their ministry to help the pastor. I know I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and I also know that in many churchs the pastor is exofficio in all meetings but I don't see biblical support for automatically assuming these men are up to no good. They may be and if so the matter must be dealt with but be careful putting the cart before the horse.
    Murph
     
  12. Shiloh

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    Deacon.............what is a deacon?
     
  13. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I disagree. I see no Biblical reason that the Deacons would meet behind the pastor's back to gossip about him in a negative manner to determine if they should go and tell him what they have been gossipping about. If there is a problem, go to him. Otherwise, they should shut their mouths and support the ministry of the pastor.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  14. Artimaeus

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    Boy, you can sure tell you guys are pastors, ex-pastors, etc. with not just a hint of dictator in you blood. While I disagree with the typical Baptist practice of having Deacons in some sort of authority, it is nonetheless how things are done in most churches. If the Pastor is not performing his job the way he should then somebody must take the initiative and investigate. Perhaps a concerned member came to one of the deacons to discuss his concern and that deacon brought it to the chairman who then decided that perhaps they should all discuss it to see if this was a legitimate concern. You cannot require leadership as a qualification and then not allow them to lead. In this scenerio the chairman should never had said anything to the pastor until they had determined that the concern was worthy of persuing and THEN gone to him for his response. Not as an ambush but with enough time to prepare a reason for his behavior.
     
  15. Artimaeus

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    I just realized, I didn't answer the question. I would first ask if this has ANYTHING to do with my being fit to be pastor and if so then I would insist that I be told whether this is still in the fact finding phase or in the "What do we do about it" phase. The pastor has every right to know if it is the latter.
     
  16. gb93433

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    Well I don't know of one in ten deacons thar are actively discipling people. If not then they are automatically disqualified to be spiritual leaders in any church.

    The majority of deacons in most any church are not fit to be leaders. So where does that put them? So you say they are to investigarte the pastor. How can those who are not leading be fit to judge another?

    I know of one such group of deacons that did that very thing, The church grew fromn 75 to almost 600 in six years. The deacons didn't like those former Mormons who had become Christians in their church. So they asked the pastor to leave. How's that for deacon leadership? The number of pastors I have known that were doing God's work and the leaders didn't like it is incredible. Another church recently dismissed its pastor while the church grew from 300 to over 900 in five years and then asked the pastor to leave. Their regular complaint was that the church isn't like it once was. We know that across the US the numbers in churches is declining. That is not growth. Two thirds of the churches in America are either plateaued or declining. Sounds like some church members need a big kick to get away from the TV and get down to business with God.

    Take the church you attend now and ask yourself how many of those deacons are actively discipling others. Those are the leaders.

    I wonder how many accuse the pastor of being a dictator are actually leading people to Christ and discipling them. I have never met one in all my years as a Christian. Just look at how many are offended by direct biblical preaching today. Perhaps if every preacher preached the Bible there might be some leaving our churches and being replaced by new believers. I personally know of a pastor that dismissed some who were causing him trouble and the church grew for the first time in years.

    My answer to your question is to find out why they are meeting. If I had to guess it is because they are too lazy to do ministry and leave it all up to the pastor. I know from personal experience and so does Paul and Jesus.

    Preaxh on gossip sometime and see what happens. I did and got quite a rise out of the gossiper in church. It turned out to be one of the deacons causing me a tremendous amount of trouble.

    I personally watched as some deacons met about me. I watched how Satan was steadily controllong them more and more. I watched as a local pastor warned them and how a man from the statge level came down and warned them. The state man told me after he met with them that I should just resign. He told me they were bad news. Some of those deacons regret not listening to me and went with some of the other deacons. It started with the gossiper who didn't like me. They were proud and were told by others that if I left they would too. They became increasingly harder and harder. Eventually the thing erupted and I left along with several other critical key people. So now the church has not grown one person since I left. But that's what it needed. It needed to get rid of its pride among the deacons. Against my advice the deacons took the church's money and invested it in a corporation and lost all except three thousand dollars which was in a local bank.

    What you are asking advice on is at an all time high now. Churches work less and ask the pastors to work more. They are expecting a success syndrome. They are fed the deceit that if they somehow get a great pastor the church will grow. That's not at all biblical. If they don't receive you then shake the dust off your feet.

    A church that will not work is not worthy of any pastor called of God. They need to shrink and die to grow again.
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Artimaeus,

    I notice you didn't use any scripture to back up your view of how deacons should operate. It is ok, because many churches today have a distorted, unBiblical view of who deacons are and what they are called to do. Find me anywhere in the Bible that says deacons should:

    1. Be leaders
    2. Be a board of directors
    3. Gossip about the pastor behind his back while trying to decide if they should tell him what they are gossipping about.

    I don't think you will find this anywhere in the Bible.

    I find that Deacons, in the Bible are:

    1. Servants who take care of ministry (taking care of people's needs by visiting them, etc...) so that the pastor can focus on the Word of God.

    I find in the Bible that all members, Deacon, Pastor, or otherwise are:

    1. To avoid Gossip like the plague.
    2. To confront those they have a problem with one on one in love first, go with two or three second, and then bring it to the Church third.

    Nowhere do I find that they should have a closed door meeting behind the pastor's back to discuss gossip about the pastor, or anyone for that matter. I stand by my original statement. It is EVIL and UNGODLY and should not be allowed to occur in the Church.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  18. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Joseph,

    It is seldom I agree with one of your posts 100%, but here you are dead on.
     
  19. gb93433

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    I recently read that someone referred to deacons as pastoral assistants. I think that is right on. They are not the pastor or his leader but his assistants. They are workers assisting the pastor.
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    I think we would all agree with this. But the first step of that investigation is ask the person who knows ... the pastor. How do you investigate without that? And why would you not include him?? The best avenue, in a scenario like this is for the deacon to go to the pastor.

    BTW, the pastor's job is not visitation. "Visiting enough" is a job qualification unknown in the NT. In fact, Acts 6 shows that the apostles appointed the office of deacon for this type of ministry so that the apostles could do their job of prayer and the word. If someone comes to a deacon and complains that the pastor is not visiting enough, that deacon should make arrangements to be in teh home that week to 1) explain the job of the pastor and 2) find out what the needs are and meet them.

    This is not to say that the pastor shouldn't visit. Maybe he should. But remember that is not his job qualification necessarily in the NT. The job qualifications are those of character and those of teaching and administrating. "Visiting" is not found.

    However, that is off topic. My point is to say that if this is the problem, there is a proper way to address it. That proper way starts with the pastor, not with a deacon's meeting in which the pastor is absent.
     

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