Can Christians be 'Homosexual'

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Rev. Joshua, Oct 4, 2001.

  1. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    What's the best forum for gay baptists to post links to sites that provide resources for gay and lesbian Christians. I saw the thread you closed, and I'm just wondering where they should have posted it.

    Joshua

    P.S. Yes, God very well may have made them gay, and that's OK.

    Dr. Griffin - I changed title only to reflect the Topic not to revise content

    [ October 05, 2001: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]
     
  2. Gina B

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    Hi Joshua. I've never heard homosexuality being able to be scripturally justified beyond Jesus loves everyone as they are, but I have heard it able to be well condemned.
    Can you explain your position to me if it is based on scripture? I'd like to hear it. If need be you can e-mail or PM.
    Gina
     
  3. Kathy

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    I would be interested in seeing the answer to Gina's question as well....

    [ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Kathy ]
     
  4. Daniel Davidson

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    I think Rev's position is :

    1) Some Christians are homosexual.
    2) Some homosexual Christians are Baptists.
    3) The church ministers to believers.
    4) The church should minister to all believers.
    5) The church should minister to homosexual believers.
    6) Ditto for non-believers.

    No judgements on the morality of homosexuality are necessary here, just a recognition that we are called to be light to the whole world, not just the part we like.
     
  5. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daniel Davidson:

    1) Some Christians are homosexual. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Wrong. Some Christians are former homosexuals; A Christian can no more be a practicing homosexual than he can be a practicing murderer or thief.


    1 Cor. 6:9-11 (ESV)
    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    Rev. 22:14-15 (ESV)
    Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. [15] Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 2) Some homosexual Christians are Baptists. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Some homosexuals are Baptists, but they're not Christians.

    John 3:36 (ESV)
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 5) The church should minister to homosexual believers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    As homosexuals are not true believers, the way that the church ministers to them is by proclamation of the unadulterated gospel, that unless they repent and turn to Christ as Lord and Savior. they will perish.

    Matthew 7:22 (ESV)
    On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'

    Luke 13:3 (ESV)
    No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 6) Ditto for non-believers.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, its true for all nonbelievers.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> No judgements on the morality of homosexuality are necessary here, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, actually there is, as it is impossible to delineate what a true believer is without judging condemning sin and lifestyles.
     
  6. uhdum

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    With all due respect, Joshua, I honestly can't see where you think the Bible says that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle.
     
  7. For His Name

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    I don't think anyone is saying homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle. I am saying we shouldn't ignore the issue or "shut it down". We should witness to these folks as well as any other sinners. Agree?
     
  8. Barnabas H.

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    Joshua, the basis of your premise has to incorporate Romans 6:16 and 1:16-32, where a total of 25 abominations are listed along with homosexuality as sin! It is not I who says so; it is God's Word, the Bible. [​IMG]

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Romans 1:16-32 – For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient. (29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, (30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, (31) Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: (32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Now I believe you agree with me that sin is sin, whether it is committed by a homosexual or a heterosexual (outside of the bond of marriage – which is one woman, one man). Hear what the Bible says about the consequences of sin in Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death!” But there is good news for a repentant sinner according to the second part of the verse quoted above: “….but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord!” So while God hates homosexuality and adultery, He forgives a repentant offender and offers the covering of His righteousness. That is the total difference between what I understand you are trying to advocate in your post above, and what I believe the Bible is trying to teach us. Trust that you concur. God bless! [​IMG]
     
  9. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    Homosexuality isn't a "lifestyle," it's a sexual orientation.

    I do not believe that God hates homosexuality or that it is sinful in any context where heterosexuality would not be sinful.

    There are only three passages in the New Testament that could even be considered to deal with homosexuality (Romans 1, I Cor 6:9, and I Tim); although I think the only one that is about consensual sexual contact between adults is Romans 1. I don't think the focus of that passage, however, is committed, exclusive homosexual relationships but rather general licentiousness.

    Beyond those texts, I know of no argument for calling homosexuality a sin (with the exception of the Levitical code which Christians already pick and choose from).

    Admittedly, I'm only giving the most cursory treatment of these texts. I highly recommend Robin Scroggs' Homosexuality and the New Testament and Daniel Helminiak's What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality for an in-depth discussion of these texts.

    Joshua
     
  10. Joy

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    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; IT IS AN ABOMINATION! Defile not yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: and the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. Leviticus 18: 22,24,25.
     
  11. Barnabas H.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rev. Joshua Villines: Admittedly, I'm only giving the most cursory treatment of these texts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So then we do not have a basis for further discussions. For I for one take the Bible very seriously. And as you have omitted to notice, I have recorded 25 sins (together with that of homosexuality) from the Bible, which is the Word of God. Under these premises I do not see why we should discuss anything further, for if we cannot come under a common denominator from the Bible then we do not have a combined aim.

    The Bible says, "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3) I don't think so. I greeve for you because of your personal belief. My prayer and hope is that God will open your spiritual eyes to be able to see His sovereign will in your life. After all, you are so young yet and God is able. God bless! [​IMG]
     
  12. Joy

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    Have you forgotten Sodom? God called that wickedness! Gen. 19:7

    Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; and he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

    How about Deuteronomy 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

    Romans 1:26 ...God gave them up to vile affections... look up the Greek- this is homosexuality.

    II Tim. 3:3 is a list of wickedness and in it- without natural affection- again check the Greek- this is homosexuality.

    Romans 1:31- same thing without natural affection, listed withsin.
     
  13. John Wells

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    Thank you Joy, and to hammer that home:

    Matthew 5:17-18 (ESV)
    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

    Can't throw out the law yet Joshua. Sacrifices and the priesthood are done away with by Jesus' perfect sacrifice and His establishing the priesthood of the believer, but the rest of Leviticus stands!
     
  14. John Wells

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    A piece I wrote some time ago:
    OFFERING HOPE FOR HOMOSEXUALS

    1. Is Homosexuality An Acceptable Lifestyle? - The Holy Scriptures say:

    "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." -- Lev 18:22
    "Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen." -- Rom 1:24-25

    1.1. In the Old Testament, homosexual behavior is considered detestable to God! In the New Testament, sexual impurity is considered a sinful desire that results in the degrading of . . . bodies. Every time homosexuality is mentioned in scripture, it is condemned. Endorsing the behavior is denying the authority of God's Word.

    1.2. People who believe homosexuality is the result of genetic inheritance assert that because it is not a chosen behavior, it cannot be a morally wrong behavior. Due to the fallen condition of mankind, we all genetically inherit a sinful nature. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." But that does not excuse us from resisting the temptation to sin. Whether we genetically inherit genes that make us more susceptible to alcoholism, obesity, homosexuality, or any other behavior detestable to God, He gives us the assurance that by the power of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the believer "we can do all things through Him who strengthens us," including and especially overcoming sinful temptations.The sinful natures we are all born with are part of "the world," and Jesus said in John 16:33, "I have overcome the world."

    2. Is Homosexuality Natural? - The Holy Scriptures say:

    Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. -- Rom 1:26-28

    2.1. God tells us in Rom. 1:20, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse," and in verse 25 that "they exchanged the truth of God for a lie." In Gen. 2:18 God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

    2.2. When God removed one of Adam's ribs, Adam became incomplete. It is only when a man and a woman unite as husband and wife, that they become one flesh and the man is made whole again. God didn't make Adam and Steve, He made Adam and Eve. Steve can't make Adam whole again. Clearly we see here that homosexuality violates God's creative purpose.

    3. Do Homosexuals Have A Way Out? - The Holy Scriptures say:

    Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. -- 1 Cor 6:9-11

    3.1. Here we see a list of lifestyles unacceptable to God, of which homosexuality is one.

    3.2. The good news is that a person doesn't have to remain in these unacceptable lifestyles. When we asked God (Jesus) to come into our lives and be Lord of our lives, God's power washed . . . sanctified . . . justified us, and will do the same for any sinner who repents, making them a new creation.

    4. Not Falling Back - The Holy Scriptures say:

    Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. -- 1 Cor 6:18-20

    4.1. There is a sense in which sexual sin destroys a person like no other, because it is so intimate and entangling, corrupting on the deepest human level. But Paul is probably alluding to venereal disease, prevalent and devastating in his day and today. No sin has greater potential to destroy the body than sexual immorality of all types.

    4.2. "Not your own." A Christian's body belongs to the Lord, is a member of Christ, and is the Holy Spirit's temple. Every act of fornication, adultery, or any other sin is committed by the believer in the sanctuary, the Holy of Holies, where God dwells.

    4.3. "You were bought at a price." The fact is that every saved person is seen as righteous in the eyes of a Holy God, in spite of our obedience or disobedience, having been bought by the shed blood of God's own Son. When we sin, when we willfully sin, we trample underfoot the grace of God, and the purpose for which Jesus left heaven, came into this world, suffered and died.

    5. Hate Sin, Not The Sinner

    5.1. Jesus never told any sinner He encountered what a low-down scumbag they were. He loved them, showing concern and love, and gently told them to "Go, and sin no more." Christians should be prepared to provide a Jesus-like response to people ensnared in homosexuality. God can cleanse and change homosexuals. He can give them new lives and victory over temptation. Because we have a caring, redeeming God, no one has to be a homosexual. The way out begins at the foot of the cross!
     
  15. Joy

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    "What's the best forum for gay baptists to post links to sites that provide resources for gay and lesbian Christians. I saw the thread you closed, and I'm just wondering where they should have posted it."

    By the way, to answer your question, as far as I'm concerned those kinds of links may not be posted here at all. I believe I speak for the rest of the moderators and the Webmaster as well.

    [ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Joy ]
     
  16. Barnabas H.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells: Christians should be prepared to provide a Jesus-like response to people ensnared in homosexuality. God can cleanse and change homosexuals. He can give them new lives and victory over temptation. Because we have a caring, redeeming God, no one has to be a homosexual. The way out begins at the foot of the cross!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Excellent post Bro. John. Thanks for sharing it!

    P.S. Lady Joy, thanks for chiming in! [​IMG]
     
  17. Dr. Bob

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    Some may say God created homosexuals or that it is NOT sin. This passes as the "liberal" viewpoint. But even in our town, 90% of the "liberal" churches would not agree with this assessment.

    I have deleted the pro-active thread on sodomites and will rename this one. We ought NOT use BB members names as titles of threads out of deference to them.

    Deal with the subject of homosexuality, like the excellent Biblical treatment given here on page 1, rather than with individuals who may be pro or con.
     
  18. Phillip

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    Dr. Griffin,
    I am not exactly sure if I understand your rules and I hope that I am following them. If not, feel free to delete this post.

    It is my opinion based on the Bible in several places that homosexuality is a sin, but we are ALL sinners. God can and will change anybody who turns themselves over to him in the name of his Son Jesus Christ.

    As for being a homosexual and Christian--I feel like this is like any other habitual sin that a Christian may have. There is a good possibility the person may not be saved, if they are and are in habitual sin then they are going to have problems. But, this doesn't just go for the homosexual, it goes for the fornicator, the adulterer, the lier, the thief, etc. etc.

    Paul indicates that we are to strive throughout our Christian growth to become more Christlike as time goes on. If this is the case, then the sin will be taken care of. If not, I would question the actual salvation first and then try to help the person (if they are open to it). We should love these sinners the same way we love any other sinner. Jesus preached love and not the hatred you often see; however, he hates the sin and we should too.
    As far as church positions -- no absolutely not, unless their life has shown to be clean for a long enough period of time to be absolutely certain. But, as I said before this goes for all habitual sinners. If a pastor is a constant liar, then I think they have no business preaching. Just my point of view as I read it in the Bible.
     
  19. Phillip

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rev. Joshua Villines:
    Homosexuality isn't a "lifestyle," it's a sexual orientation.

    I do not believe that God hates homosexuality or that it is sinful in any context where heterosexuality would not be sinful.

    There are only three passages in the New Testament that could even be considered to deal with homosexuality (Romans 1, I Cor 6:9, and I Tim); although I think the only one that is about consensual sexual contact between adults is Romans 1. I don't think the focus of that passage, however, is committed, exclusive homosexual relationships but rather general licentiousness.

    Beyond those texts, I know of no argument for calling homosexuality a sin (with the exception of the Levitical code which Christians already pick and choose from).

    Admittedly, I'm only giving the most cursory treatment of these texts. I highly recommend Robin Scroggs' Homosexuality and the New Testament and Daniel Helminiak's What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality for an in-depth discussion of these texts.

    Joshua
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No other scripture except when God rained fire on Sodom and Gomorrah. It was made very plain and obvious if you read the entire chapters without bias that one of the biggest continual sins there besides sexual immorality was homosexual immorality. The men of the city even wanted to "know" (in the Biblical sense) the angels who came to warn Lot to pack his bags. This is pretty clear and blatant to me. There was obviously enough feeling among people somewhere in the past to name "Sodomy" after the city of "Sodom" based on the fact that they were to have been considered to have been destroyed primarily for the immorality of which homosexuality was a major part. The Bible is specific about marriage with a man and a woman--no mention of like sex marriage--so obviously homosexuality among non-married people comes under the heading of fornication, not JUST homosexuality. I think if God had intended same sex marriages that it would have been mentioned in the Bible.
    I blame television and movies for a LOT of our acceptance of alternative lifestyles. The more you see it the more acclimated you become to it. You can ALWAYS justify sin. I watch people justify adultry in the very same way. :eek:
     
  20. John Wells

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    If a homosexual acknowledges their condition as sin and desires to be cleansed from it, then yes the church and Christians should be loving, supportive, and help in every way to bring about true repentance. But, as many flaunting, unremorseful homosexuals today who have no intension of acknowledging and dealing with this "detestable" (to God) sin in their lives, then as with any habitual sinner we are to:

    Matthew 18:15-17 (NASB)
    “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

    In other words, "remove the leven from the yeast!"
     

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