Can/Does This Happen?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by preacher4truth, Jul 26, 2011.

  1. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
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    Can a person cry out to God to save them, desiring a changed life spiritually, begging for repentance and salvation, knowing ones lost state, and believe all that Christ did for themself upon the Cross is the only way of Salvation for which they are pleading, and yet be rejected by God, and He not save said person? All the while this person struggles, believing that God doesn't want to save them, but still desires salvation, but feels they have been rejected, maybe not "elect?"

    Or, would Satan gladly like to leave such person in misery, turmoil and doubt, and trap them in this guilt, and yet, on the other hand, Jesus simply wants the one to believe and trust in Him instead, as they've done and as they've professed?

    He/she has been baptized and professed belief yet struggles in this issue, from assurance to miserable doubts, attends church regularly, teaches, prays, bears fruit.

    How would you help and counsel said person?

    Could God, be in fact, rejecting this person and refuse to save him?


    - Peace
     
    #1 preacher4truth, Jul 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2011
  2. Amy.G

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    If such a person pleads for Christ to save him, Jesus WILL save him. Otherwise He would have to break His word and His promise of eternal life.

    On the other hand, Satan has come to kill, steal and destroy. He loves to rob us of our peace even though he cannot rob our soul from God who holds us in His hand.

    We must not only believe God's promise of salvation but also believe His word after we're saved. We are to put on the full armor of God in order to be protected from the wiles of the devil.

    I would share Ephesians 6:11-18 with him and go step by step through the different items (helmet, shield, shoes, belt) that we are to put on. Each of these items IS Christ. Have him write in Jesus' name next to each item in his bible.

    Be strong in the LORD and the power of HIS might. (not mine)

    Realize that we fight a spiritual battle, not one of flesh and bones.

    Vs 14 Belt of truth - Jesus IS truth. He is the way, the TRUTH and the light.
    Breastplate of righteousness - Jesus is our righteousness. It is not our own.

    Vs 15 Shoes - Jesus is the gospel. He brings peace. Satan brings turmoil and doubt.

    Vs 16 - Shield of faith - believe Jesus and His promises. This protects our hearts.

    Vs 17 - Helmet of salvation - Jesus is salvation. This protects our minds.
    Sword of the spirit - God's word is sharp and cuts away the false teachings of Satan. Read your bible! Jesus IS the word.

    Vs. 18 - Pray, pray, pray.



    Also, a person that God has rejected, He has turned over to a reprobate mind and that person will have no desire whatsoever for a relationship with Christ.
     
    #2 Amy.G, Jul 26, 2011
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  3. nodak

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    Jesus said that "he that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out."

    So obviously He will save that person.

    I did encounter one person who just couldn't seem to accept Jesus could or would REALLY save him since he was so bad.

    When finally confronted that he was saying he was superior to or stronger than Jesus, or that the blood of Christ was not powerful enough to atone for his sin, he walked away from church and God.

    Later learned he was diagnosed among other things as an extreme narcissist. Just no way could he see anyone, even God, as more powerful than himself.
     
  4. JesusFan

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    God would NEVER reject One to whom He has chosen to redeem, and that person just needs to learn to trust in promises of God in the Bible, know that they are loved by God, understand what grace really is, and chose to walk by faith not by sight!
     
  5. preacher4truth

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    True.

    Why does Satan captivate some with this doubt so heavily, while others seem spared of this?
     
  6. preacher4truth

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    Interesting.

    Do you believe his personality disorder will ultimately be the key factor on missing out on salvation?

    I think there are theological view points that could be construed as narcissistic in their logical end.

    - Peace
     
  7. preacher4truth

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    Good quotes and counsel.

    Would a reprobate be though as Esau, seeking repentance, yet never able to receive? Some people argue it the case, and that they may want and desire salvation, yet cannot receive it ever.

    For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. Hebrews 12:17

    - Peace
     
  8. JesusFan

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    think that some of this is due to the background person grew up in, as that tends to make some "doubt" God can love them, really save them...

    Also, depends if person was raised at least in a "Christian" family, even church, before coming to Christ, as they had advantage of that background to grow/lean upon !

    Also, some might have had problem aread like drugs/drinking/porn /new age religion etc that allowed satan a foothold in while unsaved, and he is trying to keep it even after they get saved!
     
  9. Palatka51

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    Esau did just that;

    Hebrews 12:16&17
    .....Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

    Romans 9:13-24
    13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
    14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? :(
     
  10. annsni

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    No one who is seeking Christ, truly repentant and wanting to follow Him will ever NOT be saved.
     
  11. Trotter

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    If there is belief in Christ then the person will not be rejected. God will give the faith.

    While I believe in the elect, we are not privy to that information. If anyone would dare declare in their human "wisdom" an individual to be non-elect he/she and I would go round and round. God knows who will accept Him and He will not turn ANYONE away.
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    Form our standpoint this is a very difficult question.....any and all possibilities you have framed out are possible. Some thoughts on this;



    We can only see the outside,while God sees the heart.....

    [QUOTE 23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

    24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

    25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
    ][/QUOTE]

    if this person is being drawn by God....this struggle might be used to force them to draw near to Him


    While biblical election is a bible truth, who God has elected is not revealed.
    Sinners who are elected by God will come to believe the promise of God, by a God given faith.

    Assurance of such faith only comes through obedience of faith in all revealed truth and will of God in scripture .

    here is a link to one of the best writings on this topic...anywhere

    http://www.gracegems.org/Brooks/precious_remedies_against_satan.htm

    caution....when starting to read this....you might not be able to stop!
     
    #12 Iconoclast, Jul 27, 2011
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  13. nodak

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    As to my post and questions it raises:

    I believe if a person has a brain defect that renders them unable to respond to the gospel, grace will cover that.

    But character disorders? Only God knows if there is a brain defect at play or not.

    Are they narcissist and therefore unable to respond? Or is it a fancy name for just plain old putting self before God?

    Beyond my pay grade, no answers, only questions.
     
  14. corndogggy

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    Habakkuk 1:2
    O LORD, how long shall I cry, and thou wilt not hear! even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save!
     
  15. corndogggy

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    Psalm 22:1-2
    My God, my god, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not.
     
  16. corndogggy

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    Hosea 5:6
    They shall go with their flocks and with their herds to seek the LORD; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself from them.
     
  17. freeatlast

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    I am not sure what you mean by part of your question "begging for repentance" We are never told to beg or plead for any part of salvation as neither gets us saved. A person can plead and pour out tears over and over but until they repent and and come to faith they remain lost.


    "Can a person cry out to God to save them, desiring a changed life spiritually, begging for repentance and salvation, knowing ones lost state, and believe all that Christ did for themself upon the Cross is the only way of Salvation for which they are pleading, and yet be rejected by God, and He not save said person?"


    It is us who needs to repent as that part is in our hands to decide about. We are not told to beg God for repentance. However assuming that your wording is just semantics and the person has come to repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, no ,God would not, and could not reject them less He reject His son and yes they would be saved and it would be seen in a life change.

    As to your question "How would you help and counsel said person?"
    I never try and convince anyone that they are saved when they have doubts. I take them to the word of God explain it and ask them if this is what happened in their life and let the word by the Spirit convince them one way or the other.
    There is only one way given in the bible to know if we are saved and that is if we keep the commandments 1John 2:3.
    I have used these messages many times and it has set some free and other it is showed them the truth as to what they need to do. I have had some leave with excitement and some tell me they are not ready to go that far. Either way the truth is known.
    http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/TrueChristianityJohnMacArthhur.wma
    http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3

    One last thing I assume that everyone or certainly most has doubted their salvation at some point. However this example sounds chronic or at least an on going thing. I would not let this person teach or hold any position in the church until they had assurance as such positions only tend to add to the doubt as satan tends to attack those people with greater persistence.
     
    #17 freeatlast, Jul 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2011
  18. freeatlast

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    This is incorrect. The devils believe and tremble. The person has to repent to make the belief faith.
     
  19. freeatlast

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    You may believe that but there is no scriptural support for the belief.
     
  20. preacher4truth

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    Who said the begging "gets" one saved? You? But this is how you spin things so you can pretend to have something on someone. I guess you need that somehow.

    There is not a thing wrong with a person begging/pleading with God to bring them to this place of repentance, believer, or unbeliever alike. Repentance is His gift and His goodness leads one there, to that place, and there have been many persons being drawn this way, to find repentance, either in a process of salvation, God working on them, drawing them, or in the life of a believer within a struggle in his or her life.

    Repentance doesn't just take place once in the life of believers, instead, true believers live a lifestyle of repentance.

    Have looked at your link before, can't say I agree with much of it, nor do I embrace Lordship Salvation, or sinless perfection you preach and teach.

    - Peace
     

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