Can "Eternal Securitists" KNOW that heaven is their home.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Jul 14, 2010.

  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    In the previous thread, some of you avoided the subject of Arminian inconsistency and seemed bent on pointing out the inconsistency of the doctrine of eternal security instead.

    Nevertheless, I think we established that NO Arminian can really KNOW that he will go to heaven. He can know he is saved, but since he cannot know that he will most certainly believe to the end of his life, he cannot KNOW that he will go to heaven. Therefore, no Free Will Baptist, Pentecostal or Methodist can honestly preach- "Come to Christ and you will miss the fires of hell and be in heaven with Jesus!" The only honest way for one of these movements to preach this is- "Come to Christ and you will be saved! But you still may not miss hell and go to heaven."

    The subject of this thread is that which some seemed determined to discuss in the other, though that was not what that thread was about. Namely:

    can the Eternal Securitist KNOW better than the Arminian that he will go to heaven?
     
  2. drfuss

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    However, Eternal Securitists can know that heaven is their home by faith, same as the Arminians and Calvinists.

    Eternal Securitist (except for those who agree with Charles Stanley) believe that if a Christian later stops believing, he was not a True Christian in the first place. But he can't be sure that he is a True Christian now since so many other Eternal Securitists believed they were True Christians, and later stopped believing. So how does the Eternal Securitists know now that he is not one of them? The uncertainities are about the same between Eternal Securitist and the Arminians. However, these uncertainties become certainties by faith in Christ and His keeping power within each belief.

    The continual salvation assurances of both the Eternal Securitists and the Arminians are the same with the difference being definitions, terminoloyg and a play on words.
     
    #2 drfuss, Jul 14, 2010
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  3. annsni

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    I know without a doubt that I am going to heaven. I KNOW that I am saved. I know because the Spirit testifies to that in my heart and in my life. I know I hate sin and when I do sin, I feel physically ill. I love the brethren and have actually cried just looking at the church that I attend and see all of my brothers and sisters in Christ and know how much we care for each other. I know that God speaks to me, guides me and loves me.

    Yes, I believe in eternal security, once saved always saved - and know that heaven is my home.
     
  4. Luke2427

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    This is not logical. A Christian was not a true Christian? That's like saying a bird was not a true bird.

    He either was a Christian or he wasn't. Since he did not last he obviously was never a true Christian. What false converts believe is of little consequence to what true converts know.

    I don't understand why you cannot get this. Why does it matter what false converts believe? How does that demand that true converts can only know they are saved if they are believing?

    True converts DO NOT know they are saved because they are believing. They know they are saved because of the new nature God has given them. I have made this extraordinarily clear from the Word of God.

    Therefore if the true convert who believes eternal security knows he is saved then he NEVER has to worry about getting to heaven. It is a done deal.
    God works in him to will and to do of God's good pleasure. He is one of Christ's sheep and Christ said- "My sheep... follow me and a stranger they WILL NOT follow..."

    This person can be sure that heaven is his home.

    This is in great contrast to the Arminian.

    You keep demanding that faith is what gives assurance and you have not supported that idea with a single passage of Scripture. I have given a dozen or so to prove that it is not continued faith that gives assurance of anything- but that it is the new nature.

    Your premise is wrong, drfuss. Until you can establish it otherwise you have no argument that the eternal securitist's assurance is only different from the arminian in terminology.
     
  5. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Salvation

    I don't see why anyone Calvinist or Armenian can believe they are going to heaven without trusting in Christ. I have been trusting in God as long as can remember. It all started off with God loving the world, me, because I was in it. The creator of everything loved me. I was a loner so God was my friend. I moved a lot so couldn't get to know anyone, but God. I praise God every day for my next door neighbor that God used to introduce me to Him. It wasn't until 11 that God introduced me to His Son. To find out that Jesus His Son had to be tortured, killed who did no wrong for my sin. How can anyone go back to a life without Jesus. I know I'm going to heaven because I trust not in myself, but Jesus and His word. That God loved the world that He sent His Son that those who believe in Him, trust in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. I don't have to believe in Calvinism or Armenian to know I'm going to heaven. Even though I do like a lot of what Pink teaches, I don't have to believe in his rendition of world. I can continue to believe and trust in what God convinced me of in my youth.
     
  6. Winman

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    You have not made this clear as was pointed out by others in the previous thread. You do not absolutely know 100% that you are saved, because you do not know if you will persevere. You have the same exact uncertainty that an Arminian has.

    If a person believes they must persevere (which you do), they cannot absolutely know if they will persevere until the moment they die.

    I (and many others) do not hold to the doctrine of perserverance, we believe in preservation. In preservation you are kept by Jesus himself, you cannot possibly be lost, so you can be sure you are saved.

    Jesus is the Good Shepherd isn't he? Does Jesus lose any of his sheep? NO.

    Matt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

    Does Jesus seek those of his who have gone astray? YES. And Jesus never fails. If he goes looking for you, he finds you everytime. You cannot be lost.

    I know I am saved because I came in my heart to Jesus and trusted him to save me. I know that I did that. And I know by God's Word that he did not cast me out (John 6:37). So, my assurance is based on the word of Jesus who cannot lie.

    Now, in the previous thread I told you that I do see evidences of the new nature within myself. But trust me, I often see evidence within myself that would make me doubt my salvation. So, to me anyway, this is not the most reliable test.

    No, for me, my assurance is based on God's promises and His Word, not the evidence I see within myself.

    And this is exactly what Paul says in Romans. He often saw behavior in himself that was sinful.

    Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


    Even Paul, a great man of God, an apostle and prophet had a struggle with sin. He did not always behave as a Christian should.

    So, I do not think observing one's own behavior is the best source of assurance of salvation. When you are doing well you will have great assurance, but the next day you may commit sin you would never think a true Christian capable of that will cause you to doubt.
     
    #6 Winman, Jul 15, 2010
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  7. stilllearning

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    Hello Luke2427

    I think your point has been made, with this statement........
    For sure “faith” gets us saved.......
    Ephesians 2:8-9
    V.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    V.9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    But the truly saved, can experience a “crises of faith”......
    Mark 9:24
    “And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”

    --------------------------------------------------
    I agree with annsni, that the only way to know FOR SURE that your saved, is your personal relationship with God, through Jesus Christ.

    This “relationship” is real and tangible.
     
  8. Winman

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    I disagree.

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


    Have you ever commited sin? Then, according to 1 John 3:9 you are not born of God.

    Now, I know this is not the proper understanding of this verse, but the fact is, many thousands of Christians have been greatly troubled by this verse. They sin, and then they doubt their salvation because they believe if they were truly born of God they could not sin.

    So, I absolutely disagree with anyone who bases their assurance on observing their own behavior. We all sin, and we sin often.

    No, Jesus said whoever believes on him, that is, anyone who comes to him in dependence for salvation will be saved. I know by the Word of God I am saved, not my behavior.
     
  9. psalms109:31

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    Unbelief

    We all are going to have a Peter moment of temperory denial, unbelief, but like the man who cried out to help us in our unbelief he knew where to go to get help for his unbelief. If we disown Jesus a permenant disowning Jesus will disown us. Jesus knows who will believe. It is the work of God that you believe so turn to Him in your unbelief. We as brothers and sisters are to encourage one another daily that none of us has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. Trust in Jesus and you will not be diappointed by hearing the words I never knew you, you evil doer.
     
  10. jbh28

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    How would you interpret that passage in I John? To me, it almost seems as if you ignore it because it is confusing. I'm sure you are not doing that, but that is how it appeared to me in that past. Could you give us what you think that verse it talking about?
     
  11. Winman

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    Well, that is one of the most difficult and disputed passages in all of scripture. Much better men than me have debated these verses for centuries.

    This is one of those verses you cannot pull out and isolate from other scriptures. If so, then none of us is saved, because we all sin.

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Now, there are some groups that take this verse very literally. I knew a fellow who belonged to a church who taught that a man can quit sinning. He really believed that, and even told me there was an old man in his church who had not sinned in years.

    Now this is absurd, we all sin. In fact, I bet this guy he could not go 24 hours without sinning. He said, "Oh, that's easy! I can easily go 24 hours without sinning!" with a big smile on his face.

    I responded, "The scriptures say boasting is a sin, you just boasted, so you just sinned."

    Well, the guy turned red and I thought for a second he was going to take a swing at me.

    So, anybody who thinks they can quit sinning altogether is simply deceiving themselves. Oh, you can try and you might do well for awhile, but sooner or later you are going to sin.

    So obviously this verse cannot mean what it seems to say, and must be compared with other scripture to properly understand it. The way I understand it is that while we are saved and have the indwelling Holy Spirit, we also are flesh which is corrupt in the lusts thereof.

    Paul said he saw a law that while he sought to do good, sin dwelt in him and gave him problems.

    Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


    Have you ever seen an old cartoon where they showed a fellow with the devil over one shoulder, and an angel over the other? Well, I think that is kind of accurate. We have the Holy Spirit telling us to do good, at the same time our sinful flesh entices us to do evil.

    If we listen to the Spirit of God we cannot sin, it is impossible. Trouble is, we often give in to our sinful lusts that dwell in our flesh and sin.

    This is how I understand it.
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    Or it could reasonably mean we do not practice sin as a lifestyle.
     
  13. jbh28

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    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    I agree with you that we all sin. I sin every day. We all sin every day. That's why we have a advocate with the Father.

    I John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

    I agree with you on your statement, but I don't how we get that out of this passage.

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    It says that "whosoever is born of God." I take that as Christians. Those that have been born again. Then we say that those(that are born of God) doth not commit sin. Now, you and I both agree that this doesn't mean that we don't ever commit sin, because we know we all commit sin. I John 1:8 says " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." We'll come back to this in a moment. Next, it says why. "his seed remaineth in him" The "him" is the one "born of God." I interpret "his seed" as the Holy Spirit, the new nature in a believer. That's why he "doth not sin" because of his new nature. That's what happens in our rebirth, we receive a new nature.

    Now, what does "doth not commit sin" mean? The word translated "commit" is in the perfect tense, which is an ongoing type of verb a continuation. The passage isn't teaching that a person that is born again will never sin, but that there will be a difference. He wouldn't be a habitual sinner. If we look at the very next verse, I think it helps explain it further. I John 3:10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." This is how we can tell the difference between a child of God and a child of the devil. It is not speaking about a one time event, but over a course of time, we can see a difference.

    Our works, behavior doesn't save us. But our behavior can be a sign of a true born again Christian. James says that faith without works is dead. James isn't teaching that works saves, but works are evident of true faith. John is teaching that sinning is a sign of unbelief. Not that if you sin, but over a course of time, there will be a difference between the children of God and the children of the Devil.
     
    #13 jbh28, Jul 15, 2010
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  14. stilllearning

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    Hi jbh28

    You said.......
    I am also a sinner and the Bible tells us to continually remind ourselves of that.......
    1 John 1:8
    “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”


    But...........I do not sin, every day.
    When I do sin, I quickly repent and ask the Lord’s forgiveness and for a victory over that particular sin.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Did you mean to say, that “you sin every day”?
     
  15. jbh28

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    If you don't sin everyday, the congrats to you. Maybe we can discuss what "sin" is in another thread if you like. Don't want to hijack this thread.
     
  16. stilllearning

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    Good idea.
     
  17. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Born of God

    As long as we are in this flesh we going to have to beat this body into submission. Maybe we are not fully born of God until we get the new Spiritual body?
     
  18. jbh28

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    So, you are suggesting that "born of God" doesn't refer to being born again as Jesus spoke about in John, but our future glorification. Not a bad suggestion. My problem with that though would be that John doesn't' seem to put this in the future sense. He doesn't say when we are born of God, but refers to those that already are. I think to be consistent with Scripture, born of God refers to our new birth, regeneration - which happens at salvation. I do agree, that we still have the flesh. Our flesh and our spirit our at war with each other.

    Winman had some excellent verses on that.

    Rom 7:16-23 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

    Paul is speaking of the struggle with our new nature(spirit) and our flesh. Paul doesn't delight in his sin. He wants to do good, but at times, his flesh wins because he still has a sin nature.
     
  19. psalms109:31

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    Prospective

    In the inside we are born of God with a new nature, but that scripture puts my whole being in prospective, if I am still sinning then I am not fully born again waiting for the day to enter heaven with my Spirtual body complete in Christ. John really brings us to where we really are. If we think we can enter heaven as we are in with this flesh we are mistaken. The old nature has been condemned to the flesh that is why we struggle with it.

    Romans 8:2-4 (New International Version)
    2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[Or the flesh; also in verses 4, 5, 8, 9, 12 and 13 ] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[Or man, for sin ] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[Or in the flesh ] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
     
  20. Tom Butler

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    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    That's it in a nutshell.
     

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