Can God Add?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Aug 30, 2007.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    It is suggested that if in fact God makes a statement concerning one, such a he did Judas when he said ‘one of you ‘is’ a devil, does that mean because that is the way things are, that it is the way it of necessity have been from the beginning? Is it possible for God to know the decisions that men will make without necessitating them as ‘evil’ and ‘devils’ from the beginning?

    In Acts we find that God ‘added to the Church.’ If the proponets of the ‘Judas was a devil from the beginning' are consistent, this would be an impossibility for God to add any to the church, seeing that they either were part of the church from eternity past or they were not. All is either necessitated as it is or not. Which is it? Necessitated fatalism or not?

    Can God add or not?
     
  2. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78
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    Are you talking about adding to the church or what.
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Yes. The same issue could be made about subtraction, or blotting ones name out of the book of life.

    Either everything is under the necessity of fatalism or it is not. Which is it?
     
  4. hillclimber1

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    It is a preposterous proposition. I'm amazed at this, and many threads like it.
     
  5. Cutter

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    True, these folks can't rationalize outside of their twisted theology.
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I do not know who you are calling ‘these folks’ but if you feel that ones theology is twisted, this is the place to debate it. Fire away.
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Is your powder wet or are you just firing blanks?:)
     
  8. charles_creech78

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    Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were ADDed unto them about three thousand souls. Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord ADDed to the church daily such as should be saved. Ac 5:14 And believers were the more ADDed to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) Ac 11:24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was ADDed unto the Lord. Re 22:19 And if any man shall TAKE away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall TAKE away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.Mt 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few CHOSEN. Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are CHOSEN. Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall ENTER into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     
    #8 charles_creech78, Aug 31, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2007
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Are you certain of the meaning of the texts you post? Would you say then that they could not have always been part of the church for they were ‘added,’ meaning that there was a change in their lives, even though God knew those form the beginning that would be saved?

    On the thread about Judas, it has been suggested that because God knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil, that it was proof that Judas never could have had a right relationship with God. The logic implies, if God foreknew the outcome, the sate of the man really had to be static due to the foreknowledge of God necessitating the outcome. It would seem logical to me that if that was the case for Judas, that if in fact God knows those that are saved from the beginning, there would be no possibility of them ever being lost at any time based again on the foreknowledge of God.

    Are you absolutely certain God can add? Does that not suggest that something happened that was not necessitated, and in fact did change, in spite of His foreknowledge of the eventual outcome? If this is true, could it not be just as logical to assume that Judas was at one time right with God, yet changed at some point in time, and God simply knew the outcome of the changes Judas went through?
     
    #9 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 1, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2007
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Why do you say this? Is it as preposterous for you as it is for me that just because God knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil, that that somehow necessitates the notion that Judas could never have had a right relationship with God at some point and time in his life?
     
  11. David Lamb

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    I am assuming you are referring to Ephesians 1.3-6:

    3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
    4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
    5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
    6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

    If so, that passage does not say that believers actually became members of the church before the foundation of the world. The verses in Acts that talk about people being "added to the church" or "added to the Lord" don't contradict the Ephesians 1 passage. God added those whom He had chosen before the foundation of the world.

    Ac 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
    Ac 5:14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,
    Ac 11:24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.​
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: According to this text, and the verb tense used, when were they saved and or added to the Church?

    Have you or were you ever lost and undone? If so, how did that happen in fact you were chosen from eternity past as a believer? It would seem to me that it is an impossibility to be two different things in the same sense at the same time, would it not?

    If you admit you were lost and undone as a sinner, you would have at some point had to have ceased from being the saved individual you were created to be, proving that indeed you can be lost as a Christian. It must also prove that indeed you must be more powerful than God, having thwarted His salvation plan for yourself, if but for a few short years.
     
  13. charles_creech78

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    Well when was peter converted? Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be CONVERTED, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Lu 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art CONVERTED, strengthen thy brethren. Lu 22:33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. Lu 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. Joh 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. Joh 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. Joh 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. Joh 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. Joh 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Joh 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Joh 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee.
     
    #13 charles_creech78, Sep 1, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2007
  14. charles_creech78

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    You believe in backsliding don't you Heavenly.
     
  15. charles_creech78

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    Well if you do then you are not trusting in the Lord. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are SEALED unto the day of REDEMPTION. Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto PERDITION; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: You tell me. :)



    HP: Absolutely


    HP: Oh yes I am, but I have no confidence in the flesh. :thumbs:
     
  17. webdog

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    I'm glad someone asked that. I was beginning to think someone was questioning God's math skills...
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Now that you have swallowed the bait, what do you think? :smilewinkgrin:
     
  19. charles_creech78

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    My friend if you believe in backsliding and that means you don't believe God can't keep you till the day of redemtion. Which he said ye are sealed. I am not talking about the flesh I am talking about the spirit.Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. I do not think you believe that God can keep.
     
  20. webdog

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    I think God is very good at math ;)
     

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