Can God curse beleivers

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by In His Grace, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. In His Grace

    In His Grace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    0
    As an example:

    God will curse you if you don't give your tithes and offerings? Or would it more correct to say that your blessings will be lest?

    While I'm at it, is tithes and offerings one in the same or two different things? :confused:
     
  2. Trotter

    Trotter
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/6412.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,815
    Likes Received:
    0
    God can do anything He pleases. Period.

    But I know of nowhere in the New Testament that says anything like this.

    They are two totally different things.

    Tithes were mandatory under the Law. Under grace, we give our offerings.

    And, yes, that is contrary to what many preach from the pulpit. But i figure they'll get over it sooner or later.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  3. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    In His Grace,

    In Romans 8:28-30 you will find that those who are His are in the process of being transformed into the likeness of Jesus Christ Himself.

    In Philippians 1:6, you will find that God is faithful to finish the good work He has begun in us.

    In Hebrews 12 you will find that He disciplines us.

    But curse us? No. Discipline is not fun, but necessary, and not a curse.

    Jesus said He gave us His peace and His joy. That is certainly not cursing us! We can sure make ourselves unhappy, though, when we decide to go our own way and He has to haul us back! So I guess we can, in that sense, curse ourselves, but God doesn't curse those who are His.
     
  4. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,184
    Likes Received:
    326
    Amen, with one other benefit Helen:

    Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.


    HankD
     
  5. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    I'm surprised by the OP. The poster's chosen "displayed name" seems to indicate greater knowledge than this. I'm in agreement with the first 3 responses. Thanks, Trotter, for the distintion between the tithe and the offering. Read Romans 8:1-4. Put the stress on the word NOW: "There is therefore NOW no condemnation......". Now and forevermore, blessed assurance! Chastised, yes. Been there, done that. Cursed? No, a thousand times, no.
     
  6. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Both tithes and offerings were part of the ceremonial Levitical law for Israel. Neither of them had to do with putting money in a plate.

    Tithes were yearly selections of one tenth of one's agricultural produce to be eaten by one's household and shared with Levites, widows, and strangers within one's gates. It was their national tax and welfare system for their theocratic form of government. (Deuteronomy 14:22-29)

    Offerings were things burned on an altar. I can't find anywhere in the Bible where an "offering" means or symbolizes otherwise.

    IMHO, gifts would be the Biblically correct term for the practice of meeting the needs of each other and those working in the ministry, whether monetary or other. However there are no upper or lower boundaries for gifts except what can be given cheerfully. (2 Corinthians 9:7)

    I assume you are talking about Malachi 3:8-12. This is addressed to the nation of Israel--to the people and even to the priests (Malachi 2:1,4,7-9; 3:3-4,6)--about their mistreatment of the storehouse system of tithe collecting that Nehemiah had instituted (Nehemiah 10-13) and their offering polluted bread (Malachi 1:7,10,12) and blemished livestock (Malachi 1:8,13-14)

    If you haven't been tithing your crops and livestock yearly for the Levites and burning things on an altar and you aren't being cursed, I guess this curse was not meant for you.
     
  7. In His Grace

    In His Grace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    0
    Malachi 3:8-12

    Would I assume then, that the use of this scripture is being taken out of context to get people to put money in the plate?

    How much of the old testament scriptures do we follow when it comes to tithe, offering, giving of gifts?
    How does this compare with new testament scriptures on this subject?
     
  8. Me4Him

    Me4Him
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

    Nu 18:20 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.

    21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

    Nu 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

    The purpose of "Tithes" was to make it possible for the "Priest" to serve in the temple without having to work and "support themselves".

    Even today, it's referred to as "Supporting the Ministery".

    If the OT was a "Schoolmaster", tithing certainly is "required".
     
  9. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, yes, a hundred times, yes! ;)

    Always look at the context; look at the Scriptures that surround those in question; look for the recipients.

    Gifts are for the ministering of the saints.

    Gifts should meet the necessity of those evangelizing.

    Gifts are easier to administer and more effective when planned rather than impromptu ("offering" plates, anyone?). Give of what God has prospered you; don't be strongarmed into giving a specific amount that can't be done cheerfully.

    Gifts should be given cheerfully knowing that the more given in proportion of what you have the greater the benefit.
     
  10. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is nothing in Scripture to support
    temple = church
    storehouse = church
    Levites/priests = parishoners
    tithes (livestock/crops) = tithes (paycheck)
    etc.

    I believe in "supporting the ministry" (New Testament) but there is no way you can prove with Scripture that "tithes" are required to do such.
     
  11. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Supporting the ministry is required. Supporting fellow believers in need is required. In general those who trust in Christ are freed from both the trappings of greed and their anxioty in looking after their own needs, so are able to share and share willinging all that they possess. Those most of us don't, in this wealthy nation, 10% (if that what this arguement is really over) really should be the minimum we could give.
     
  12. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes!
    Yes!
    Is this your opinion? If it is a Scriptural mandate, prove it with Scripture. The minimum and maximum boundaries for Christian giving is that which can be done cheerfully (2 Cor 9:7). If there are mandatory limitations on what a believer should give, then they are against 2 Corinthians 9:7.
    Ten percent of one's paycheck is a good scheme to follow; however, to say that such is a command or a should to a New Testament believer cannot be supported in the New Testament, nor can it be properly derived from the Old Testament.
     
  13. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    How does this relate to the OP, if at all?


    Acts.5
    [1] But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
    [2] And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
    [3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
    [4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
    [5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
    [6] And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
    [7] And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
    [8] And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
    [9] Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
    [10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    [​IMG]
     
  15. In His Grace

    In His Grace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    0
    LadyEagle,
    is this your example of beleivers being cursed?

    My example was how some preachers will tie in tithes and offering, and someones lack of giving, being a curse for the person. [​IMG]
     
  16. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    God's curses on people in the OT were the expression of His judgment on sin. There is no record of this in the NT that I know of. People in the OT did not have the sealed indwelling of the Holy Spirit as believers do. God does not curse believers.
     
  17. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    The curse in Malachi 3 is defined in the context:
    They were cursed, so what is it?
    The "windows of heaven" has to do with rain. This same term is in another passage:
    Although in this passage it is obviously negative "opening the windows of heaven" means sending rain upon the earth in abundance. Part of the curse was that they were not getting needed rain.
    Another part of the curse was that devourers were coming and destroying the fruits of their ground. They were also having fruit rot before harvest.
    If the children of Israel properly tithed of their crops and livestock year by year, sharing with the Levites, the fatherless, the widows, and the strangers within their gates; and properly offered good offerings upon the Lord's altars--not the blind, the lame, and the polluted--God would make their land delightsome. If they didn't obey these laws, their land was cursed by not getting sufficient rain, devourers destroying what little crops could survive, and so on.

    Simple enough?
     
  18. In His Grace

    In His Grace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    0
    AresMan,

    You make a strong case, very well put.

    Not too many preachers would be too happy with your point of view. But it needs to be pointed out, because I have a real problem when someone will try and use scripture to make people feel guilty for not giving, or to intimidate them.

    Why can't preachers just say something like this,

    in the old testament 10%(tithes) and offerings was the normal,

    in the new testament, we give from the heart without being intimidated or to be made to feel guilty, therefore if you can even do better than the old testament normal then by all means give out of your love for the ministry, because you truely beleive in what is being done for the Lord.
     
  19. Me4Him

    Me4Him
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

    Tithes are the "means" by which the ministery is supported, in the OT, it was the "Firstfruit" of the harvest, we substitude "money" to purchase the harvest.

    OFFERING/SACRIFICES

    There's only "ONE SACRIFICE" God will accept from us.

    Ro 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

    Your "Sacrifice" can't be purchased by your "Tithes", they are "Separate".
     
  20. mountainrun

    mountainrun
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2001
    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    0
    It seems that people who pick out certain laws from the Old Testament to place themselves under also pick out certain laws to ignore that do not particularly appeal to them.

    If the 3rd chapter of Malachi requires us to tithe, the 4th places us under the law of Moses, which we are clearly not, according the Gospel.

    MR
     

Share This Page

Loading...