Can God-Given Faith be Defective?

You are confusing the God-given gift of "eternal life" i.e. "salvation" (that is appropriated by God-given faith), with the God-given gift of regeneration, which is also a work of God but prior to faith. The entire process of faith is a gift of God the Father and a work of Holy Spirit.

Once again, does MacArthur believe regeneration (being born again) occurs prior to faith.....or.....does MacArthur believe regeneration (being born again) occur after a person believes with a faith that includes repentance and Lordship?

Can you explain why that is not a contradiction? How can MacArthur believe both?

Personally, I see the work of Holy Spirit in regeneration as a separate work from the indwelling of Holy Spirit that occurs at the reception of salvation via faith. I agree with MacArthur, however, that the process of salvation is all a work of God and men can do no work to merit the reception of eternal life.

peace to youraying:

 

Anyone that knows the "ordo salutis" that JM holds to would know that when he speaks of an "offer" and a "call", he is speaking of the ministry of the preached word in conversion, NOT regeneration. If JM were speaking of regeneration, then he would say so. LM continues to put words in JM's mouth that he didn't say.

 

The issue at hand is not whether we agree on regeneration before faith, but what JM's words mean in light of his view of the order of salvation. This is what renders your entire critique of JM invalid. JM never says "in order to get born again, you must do this or do that". No, he says, in effect, "when you have been born again, you will desire to do this or do that". Birth first, then conversion. You may not agree with it, fine, but stop trying to make JM say something he didn't say. Canadyjd has repeatedly shown you your error, but you persist.

If you don't agree with birth first, then start a thread and it can be debated just as it has been many times before here on BB. Either way, why can't you stop your unwarrented and inaccurate attacks on John MacArthur?

 

Once again, Lou Martuneac, does MacArthur believe regeneration (being born again) occurs prior to faith.....or.....does MacArthur believe regeneration (being born again) occur after a person believes with a faith that includes repentance and Lordship?

You have claimed that John MacArthur believes and teaches both positions.

Can you explain why that is not a contradiction? How can MacArthur believe both?

Are you capable of answering directly?

peace to youraying:

 

I will answer you directly.

Forgiveness of sin and recieving eternal life should not be used interchangably with being "born again". They are differenct terms and they convey different truths.

Now, I have answered you directly. Will you have the integrity to answer me directly?

Why will you not give a public apology to John MacArthur? You claimed MacArthur said "carnal" christians were an invention of men, when in fact MacArthur said, "carnal Christians" were an invention of men.

You rightly pointed out that I had done the same to your quote. You called my mistake "deliberately miscontruing" your statement.

If you will not publicly apologize to John MacArthur for deliberately misconstruing his statement, you will be demonstrating in plain view what I have said many times.

Lou Martuneac should not be considered a serious scholar, writer, blogger, or contributor.

We can add to that that Lou Martuneac has failed to demonstrate personal integrity in the way in which he deals with his obvious errors.

peace to youraying:

 

What is the difference in what Lou has claimed he said and what he did say?

Or is there a typo in this sentence?

Thanks
HankD

 

I'll post what I said from the other thread "the apology...."

Lou Martuneac rightly pointed out that I had misquoted his statement. He had used the phrase "carnal" Christians. I responded by asking about "carnal Christians".

When I saw what I had done, I immediately and sincerely apologized to Lou Martuneac. It was unintentional. I believe we should present others statements as accurately and truthfully as we can. Otherwise, we shouldn't be using "quotes".

I'll repost my public apology:

With this exchange in mind, please notice what Lou Martuneac said on another thread (Are there Carnal Christians?).

Lou Martuneac twice misconstrued John MacArthur's statements in the same way that I misconstrued his. The wording is exactly the same. John MacArthur used the phrase "carnal christians" and Lou Martuneac claimed he said "carnal" christains.

Whether there is a big difference between "carnal" christians and "carnal christians" isn't the point. The point is that Lou Martuneac claimed that I had "deliberately miscontrued" his statement when I made the same error that he later made.

Therefore, since Lou Martuneac has made the same error, we must conclude that what he did was "misconstruing" John MacArthur's statement, for which Lou Martuneac should apologize, just as I apologized.

peace to youraying:

 

Let it go. raying:

 

I appreciate the advice. I know it is getting old to watch.......

But yet, Lou Martuneac continues his never-ending smear of John MacArthur........

What to do, what to do..........?????????

.........Yeh, I guess it's time to let it go. Thanks Amy.G

peace to youraying:

 

Let it go. :laugh:

Sometimes you just have to accept what is. John MacArthur will be fine.

I hope you don't think I was fussing at you.

 

CanadyJD, I think we were posting at the same time.

God Bless. :saint:

 

The OP concerns God given faith and whether or not it can be defective.
My concern is not primarily with personalities (but they must of necessity be involved to some degree).

Right now I would like to address this issue apart from the writings of these men (as much as possible).

Faith that is given by God can in no way be defective.

However, I believe the Scripture teaches that of those with this God given faith many indeed do come short of the perfection of this faith.

Perfection means complete, mature but not sinless perfection.
Though it is the will of God that we do not sin.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Yet even within this desire expressed by the Spirit of God through the Apostle John is the advocacy of Jesus Christ as our intercessor.

There is Scripture which speaks of carnal Christians.

First the Corinthian believers are called sanctified saints…

1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Later they are rebuked for their carnality.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

In another place they are warned about the repercussions of eating the Lord’s Supper in an unworthy manner (for instance coming to communion while drunk).


1 Corinthians 11
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Just how far can things get out of hand before the Lord lets loose the chastisement?

Revelation 2
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Now I am certainly not saying that a Christian can get away with committing fornication or going back into the bondage of sin. Obviously we cannot and may even be taken home for the evil done in the body.

But the scriptural evidence is that Christians are indeed capable of being carnal and have the ability to do some terribly evil things.

After justification comes sanctification to mortify/crucify the flesh from whence comes carnality which appears to be the condition of “babes in Christ”

Sanctification is a life long endeavor.

So, while God’s gift of faith through grace is perfect and in no wise defective in that it brings with it eternal life, the requirement of sanctification through faith is not always attained to a high degree in the believer and he/she can even be a miserable failure in this area.

1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The key is the foundation that no man can lay than that is laid which is Jesus Christ.
He is the author and finisher of our faith.

We build upon that faith which brings the absolute promise of eternal life.
In that it cannot be defective ("I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish").

But as to the rewards of gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stuble, some receive a reward,
some lose all yet they themselves are saved.



HankD

 

I have....you're right.....no I didn't.:wavey:

peace to youraying:

 

Great post!