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can God REALLY Be Sovereign IF mankind as a "Full" Free Will?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Yes ignore predestination so you can allow human beings to determine their own spiritual destiny..... :laugh:
     
  2. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    predestination/Election, once I started to understand it from the Biblical perspective...

    has proven to be a great encoragement to me and my family, as since the Lord is standing behind us in His power, to make sure that we can get home, gives us hope for whatever comes our way!

    Also helped me to pray ansd to witness better, as now realise that its God who has to work upon others in order to get them saved, and God will do all that is needed every time to get His will done!
     
  3. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    JF, don't you think that everyone who claims the moniker of "Christian" also believes that they too read and understand doctrines of scripture. I am glad that you are confident and secure in where "you have landed" theologically, but those of us that differ are also equally confident and secure. We even share our faith and convictions with others too. :)
     
  4. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    i fully agree, was not talking about anyone else there, was just stating that we can be confident in god to bring about whatever His plans and purposes are, as he has those in mind for us, and he is sovereign to accomplish everything that we need to make sure we get to heaven and can be used by him in this life too!
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I like this very much JF.....more so that its true! Blessings to you for that my brother.:godisgood::thumbs:
     
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    No problem with man's laws agreeing with the ten commandments. The Scriptures indicate that every man and culture has the commandments imprinted upon their hearts. That is how society keeps from internal collapse. However, keeping the commandments is not providing any measure of righteousness between God and man (see rich young ruler), only further validates man's failure.



    No, that is not a demonstration of "freewill." Man following the law or not is the will of the old nature. That will is a fallen will, it cannot know God, and cannot receive the things of God. As such, it is NOT a free will. It is sinful and leads man to fail.


    The scriptures teach that the natural man does not seek God.
    Psalms 14: "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that does good, no, not one."

    The "assurance of salvation" comes by God having bestowed "the measure of faith," and therefore such passages of hope such as "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit," and "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" serve as agreement between the Holy Spirit and the spirit of the new nature.


    The Scriptures reject the argument that "freewill does give up or surrender to Christ." The Scriptures teach in 1 Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."


    Not at all.

    It is the Arminian view that refutes that does not hold to the statement, "with God all things are possible."

    In the Arminian view, the person has the power to accept or reject.

    In the Arminian view, the person has the power to embrace or prevent.

    It is the Calvinistic thinking that totally holds to "all things are possible with God."




    Actually the scriptures do teach that man in his natural state cannot respond to the gospel.

    Examples from the Scriptures have been shown on the bb.

    No person can respond to God or from God, unless first God does a miraculous work.

    An example is Balaam, the donkey, the angel of the Lord.

    It is the Arminian view that has been shown not supportable by Scriptures taken in context.

    One of the phrases common to the revival meetings of the past is "Accept Christ." That has led many to embrace the thinking that man has a choice. But just as Christ told Nicodemus, a person MUST be born again.

    No child decides their conception, their formation, their birth, yet each cries out displaying for all to hear that they are alive.

    It is that same way in the new birth.
     
  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Jim,

    I am a calvinistic thinker that rejects thinking that there is any "free will" of "free choice."

    The will of man is either tuned to God (Adam before the fall - for he had intimate walk and talk with God), or the will is fallen (Adam after the fall, communication was cut off by God).

    The New nature (which includes a new will) is given to man and wars against the old will.

    The new nature will is not "free" for it is tuned to be submissive to God.

    One might consider that a person may "choose" the wills. However, the very subject of "will" indicates that one "will" follow the "will."

    Therefore, there is no "free will" and no "free choice."

    Each will has unavoidable consequences.

    The question may be asked, how then does a person who is saved fall into sin and get back out. Paul states that the believers who detect such a person are to go to that person and "restore" them, or shun (using an old Amish term) and removal from the assembly that the body is destroyed and soul saved.
     
  8. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    man is free to chose, its just their choices will be bound up in the 'Bondgae of the Flesh", to borrow from Luthor!
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Im curious as to how you came to these conclusions?
     
  10. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    welcome to the daily "Will of God Vrs Will of man" discussion here on the BB!

    Have to understand that though no one here cliams to have Arminian theology as regards Sotierology, as they prefer to use "Non cal"...

    At least arms see that we were damaged by the fall, and we srill need grace of God to enable us to chose for jesus...

    They dislike us for saying God has it irresistable towards his elect, the see ALL as potentially the elect, based upon our rejection/accpetnace after God enable us!
    NON cals see us still able to do that within ourselves, still have natural ability to place faith in jesus !

    So JUST need to hear Gospel, and freely decide for Christ or not!
     
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    If their "choices will be bound up in the bondage of the flesh", then there is still no "free to chose" position.

    Free to chose would indicate that a personal volition to gain righteousness exists. There is none.

    No free will, no freedom of choice.
     
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The Scriptures teach that Adam choose to sin. That is he chose the love for Eve over the Love for God.

    The Scriptures also teach that all humanity dwells in bondage to sin and the natural man not only does not receive the things of God, but is in a state of active rebellion against God.

    To make an understanding of the will must also include just what the will is as related to the nature of man. It is the driving force, the deciding factor, the desire and inclination including attitude toward something, or body...

    The Scriptures teach that the nature of man includes the will (determining force) of man, for no man lives that does not obey their will. What man will do, he does - as even Paul stated.

    The Scriptures indicate that the new nature of God includes a new will (determining force) that redirects the focus and living of the believer to things of God.

    Because neither of the wills are free, then it follows that there is no freedom of choice.

    Freedom of choice implies that there is no consequence except in which direction(way to go) or object is chosen. However, the Scriptures teach that God knows and considers humanities' thoughts before they are even "thunk."

    Because the very heart (thoughts and emotions) of humankind are reviewed by God, there is no process of thinking that does not have consequences. (Note what Jesus said about sin was more than an act - aligned with the "thought of foolishness is sin).

    So, it is conclude-able that there is "no freedom of choice" and "no free will" and that Scriptures support the statements as I indicated.

    I know that this view is a lonely position to hold, and that most will not be inclined to be agree totally. However, it is Scriptural.
     
  13. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Now that is a fact. :thumbsup:
     
  14. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Then mankind is force-fed salvation then?
     
  15. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Scriptures support both the election of God and man's free will to choose. Both are taught and both are working together to bring some to salvation wihtout one violating the other.
     
  16. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  17. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    i agree with you, as read Luthors book early on, his discussion of this very point debating Erasumus!
     
  18. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    need to palce the quote in its proper contex though!

    They dislike us for saying God has it irresistable towards his elect, the see ALL as potentially the elect, based upon our rejection/accpetnace after God enable us!
    NON cals see us still able to do that within ourselves, still have natural ability to place faith in jesus !

    So JUST need to hear Gospel, and freely decide for Christ or not!


    that last part refers to what the non cals here say, as would deny need to have God apply effectually the grace of the Cross to our behalf in order to be even in a position able toactually receive jes, as their theology states!
     
  19. mandym

    mandym New Member

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    Yes He can
     
  20. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    I cannot tell you what "non cals" believe. I can only tell you that the bible teaches. God elects because of Sovereignty and man chooses from free will. It is God and man each working together that some might be saved. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God offers man faith through hearing of the word of God and man freely chooses if he wants to accept (repent) or not.
     
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