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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Nicholas25, Dec 6, 2008.
Please think this through before you reply. Thanks.
Suggesting that we think this through before answering makes me wonder if this is a trick question. Such as, OSAS and eternal security are not the same thing, or something like that.
Assuming not, the answer is no.
Now one may hold to apostasy and call himself a Southern Baptist, but he is not.
One may hold to apostasy and some SBC church may admit him to membership, but he is not.
One may call himself a chicken, but he is not.
No trick question here. So you could be a member at a Southern Baptist Church, but not being a true Southern Baptist. You have to believe in every doctrine/teaching of the a particular church to be a true member? That is a little tough isn't it?
I would think that it is even more tough to ask a question about a major doctrine belief and then apply the answer to everthing.
Going by what we have seen on this board, it is obvious not all SB's accept OSAS..they are too into free willness.
==Generally the answer is yes. However such a person does not agree with the doctrinal statement of the church they belong to.
In one SBC church I pastored, there were some who were already members before I came, and received Christ while I was there. The wife of a friend of mine whose dad was a SBC evangelist came forward during the invitation to receive Christ where her husband was the pastor a SBC church after he had preached a message one Sunday. Every year students at SWBTS receive Christ.
On the west coast when I lived there I had a lot of interaction with people visiting the area because I lived in a tourist area, and it was amazing how many Baptists I led to Christ who were members of Baptist churches.
Some pastors preach to get numbers and baptisms others preach the gospel and relay to the listeners the cost of following Christ.
The question was specifically about OSAS. This is not a secondary doctrine which would not necessarily be a test of fellowship. This is a foundational doctrine.
I cannot understand anyone who holds to apostasy wanting to be a member of a Southern Baptist church.
Maybe you could not understand, but could they be a member at a SB Church and not be a Southern Bapitst? Maybe one would want to become a member becaues all of the conditional security churches teaches what amounts to a works salvation, as opposed to keeping the faith and continuing to trust in Christ. There is a big difference. Maybe the person liked everything about a Southern Baptist Church and the Southern Baptist Convention, but just didn't hold to OSAS.
I've seen it occur.
I disagree that the "Southern Baptist Church" has a statement of faith. There is no such thing as THE Southern Baptist Church. That said, generally, SB churches do hold to the security of the believer, as do most SBs, but you'll find SBs in these churches who do not, and some churches that don't altogether. I candidated at one of these churches about 12 or 13 years ago.
I never liked the acronym of OSAS. I think it leads to false concepts. The proper designation is the perseverance of the saints. We persevere in the faith once delivered to us by God, and God holds us up in our jorney with Him. This leaves us with some responsibility, but ever under the guidance and maintenance of God.
I blieve the Southern Baptists have maintained this doctrine all down through the years, even though some may have wavered on it.
Am 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Does the "Spirit" teach different doctrines to different people???
"one mind, one accord" is what builds a Church, folks "going their own way" is why it doesn't grow.
Jesus is the "HEAD" of the "BODY", and the "Comforter" is his "VOICE".
When everyone has "ears to hear", everyone will be of "one mind, one accord",
Else there will be a division within the "body".
While I am a firm believer that a saved person can never be lost, I would point out that one cannot find anything remotely close to the phrases of either "once saved, always saved" or "perseverance of the saints" in Scripture anywhere. Both these phrases represent an attempt to derive theology from Scripture. While neither are necessarily right or wrong in and of themselves, they simply are not Biblical phrases. They may, (or may not, as some may believe) however, accurately convey Biblial Doctrine.
As to whether or not this must be believed, according to a church's Doctrinal Statement, I would point out that my own church, which has affiliated with the SBC ever since the earliest days of its founding in 1845 [and the Forks of Dix River Baptist Church, which is my home church, has been in existence since 1782, and is the third oldest extant Baptist church (and third oldest extant Protestant church, of any 'denomination') located "West of the Alleghenies"] did not even have a formal statement of faith until 1967, at which time we adopted the 1962 BF&M. That means that our church did not even have any formal declaration of beliefs for 185 years, yet few have ever doubted where she stood, doctrinally, that I'm aware of.
Incidentally, the 1962 statement is still our 'official' standard of belief, as we have not adopted the 2000 BF&M, at least in any formal manner, although I personally do not see that much real, basic difference between them, even though the 2000 statement does address a few things the 1925 and 1962 statements did not.
I know this as I am the church Moderator and one of the two de facto historians of 'Forks' Church, the other being the Church Clerk, us upon whom this mantle has fallen, due to the homegoing, over the last decade, of all our 'real' historians.
I believe that we can agree to disagree on most church distinctives. I believe that we have to agree on the fundamental principals of the Christian faith. I am talking about the virgin birth, death burrial, and resurrection, heaven, hell, etc..
Well, I thought about it for 2 days and still think this is a trap...
actually I believe someone can be a member of an SBC church and disagree with most of its doctrinal positions. When we join an SBC church we don't sign a creed. We can disagree over many diverse theological issues.
Ironically a second part to this is that I have several friends who don't subscribe to the once saved always saved dictomy. They believe there a breadth of middle ground between the polarized positions.
Finally, let's be frank about this. Historically the SBC has held a variety of beliefs on this issue and has no clear cut dogmatic teaching because that is not what the SBC is about (well at least not until about 20 years ago.) So we can have ministers who don't hold to the polarized view and members.
Every SBC church has the biblical authority to discipline those who disagree with most of its doctrinal positions. And should a SBC church fall away in the same manner associations can and do put them out as well.
SBC churches range all the way from being close to paganism and full of worldliness to godliness and being biblical. I have met some SBC folks who were not Christians and some who were involved in the occult. Yet all were members.
While you are right, it happens very little.
But we're not "FREE" to believe whatever we "CHOSE", the "BODY" must listen/obey the "HEAD".
You were charged with a sin, the law requires a "death" for that sin, Jesus died for that sin.
You lose salvation, now you're charged with another sin, can the law be satisfied by you "repenting", or would Jesus have to return again and die for that sin????
"Without the shedding of blood (death) there is no remission of sin".
Have you committed any sins since you were saved, one sin, any sin, makes you as guilty as if you broke all the laws.
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just your past/present sins, but also your future sins as well, that why you are "SEALED" and not charged with any sins committed after being saved,
Even if you "fall away".
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
After being charged with that "first sin", the others, or number of them, really don't matter, that one sin has condemn you to hell.
"GOD NEVER FORGIVE SIN", the law won't allow it, a death for sin is required by the law, and every jot/tittle required by the law will be "PAID",
"if it's possible, let this cup pass from me", but it's not possible, no shed blood, no remission, as Jesus proved.
Are you kidding?
You can be a Southern Baptist and:
Never attend church (we are missing about 6-8 millions members, you know?)
Believe "salvation is of Man"
Be, as Jim says, full of "free willie"
Be a full-fledged Pelagian like one DOM I know--denying the impeccability of Christ and the idea of original sin.
So, with all that in mind, I see no problem for a Southern Baptist not believing OSAS, no matter how you translate that phrase.