Can OSAS Survive Romans 11?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Feb 24, 2010.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    This is part-2 of "How Romans 11 debunks OSAS"


    For any doctrine to survive "Sola Scriptura" it has to be measured against the inconvenient details in scripture -- this is true of OSAS just like any other doctrine.



    The lost vs saved group in Romans 11

    1. Lost -- those unbelieving Jews that were "removed" that were "not spared".

    2. Saved - those who "stand by their faith alone".


    1. The target audience is the Gentile reader - believers in Rome.
    2. Gentile Believers in Rome that stand ONLY by their faith.
    3. Gentile Believers in Rome that have been cut off from the wild tree where they started.
    4. Believers in room that HAVE BEEN grafted into to the olive tree - the body of Christ - the ONE spiritual Israel of God.
    5. Believers that have been warned about the risk of falling from that position -- in the same way that others before them had fallen IF they forget that they are standing "by their faith alone".

    But suppose that the "you only stand by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to also apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as some may have been suggesting.

    The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

    What say you?

    Do the Lost "stand by their faith"??

    Or is that only the saved?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Doubting Thomas

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    No--the fact that these Gentiles whom Paul is addressing were noted to be currently "stand(ing) by faith" shows they were not among 'the Lost', but were believers. They were currently grafted into the olive branch, from which the unbelieving Jews were cut off because of their unbelief. This is the same group of Gentile believes that Paul warned could share in the same fate of the unbelieving Jews (ie "you also will be cut off" v.22) if they did not continue in the goodness of God.

    So to answer your question listed in the title of the thread: No, OSAS cannot survive Romans 11.
     
  3. Jedi Knight

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    Bob, You need another thread to beat that drum of yours? lol
     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    I for one am awaiting Darrell's return to answer some of the points BR has made concerning Darrell's comments. :thumbs:
     
  5. BobRyan

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    That is agreement! I will take it! :jesus:

    Again - :thumbs:

    And there you have it!

    :1_grouphug:

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    HP: Sin is no laughing matter, and neither is telling the truth of sin and its penalty.

    Now I for one believe that there is a clear distinction between a sinner and a believer, but I know how those look upon it that are promoting a sinning religion by telling us that sin in a believers life will not separate them from a Holy God. Now holding to the thought that all believers are still sinners, it should awaken even the most staunch supporter of OSAS from their slumber knowing that if they are not converted “FROM” the error of their ways, being the sinners they claim to be, this verse does not bode well for their eventual peaceful repose.
     
    #6 Heavenly Pilgrim, Feb 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2010
  7. Darrell C

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    Hi Bob,

    Those of Israel who were cut out in Romans 11 are the ones who are of the synagogue of satan.

    Jesus said of these, "Ye are of your father, the devil, and his works you will do."

    I never meant to imply that the gentiles were such, but, though they are not Jews, and they are unbelieving, they certainly are of the devil.

    Lets look at a few things concerning the groups contrasted:

    In ch. 10, Israel is ignorant of God's righteousness and is lost (vv.1-3).

    Concerning righteousness, as is always the case, it is through faith in Christ (the scripture cannot be broken):

    10:4-For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    So we have established two facts: Israel is lost (and this speaks on a national basis, there is always a remnant); they will only be saved (graft back into the tree of relationship with God) by faith in Christ apart from their own righteousness and that of the law (by keeping the law, which was the only thing they knew).

    How canthey do this?

    9-That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Easy enough so far. Now back to Israel, one of the groups of Rom. 11 we are discussing.

    10:16-But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

    Israel received the gospel (c.f. also Heb. 4:1,2), but they did not believe.

    Gentiles now, have heard the gospel, but have they all believed?

    It will be the same with Gentiles as it was with Israel:

    10:21-But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a dis obedient and gainsaying people.

    Now for the text in question:

    Although Israel has been blinded to the truth, they are not forever cut off from coming back into relationship with God;

    Even as the gentiles have no guarantee that they will be true believers...like as Israel, they have the possibility of becoming like Israel, seeking righteousness apart from faith in Jesus Christ (and specifically, seeking righteousness by the law, which, as 10:4 states, isn't going to happen).

    Bob and H.P.,

    You see this passage as you do because you are locked into this viewpoint.

    The only way to see this in context is to examine the foundation of your faith, which is Jesus Christ, and His atoning work on your behalf.

    Again, this passage contrasts believers with unbelievers.

    Those seeking righteousness through faith, and those seeking righteousness by works.

    Notice 11:32-For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    This would be contradictive if this passage deals with individuals...for there is always a remnant who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

    You cannot make this passage to propose a born-again believer can end up in eternal separation from God.

    It is the people of the Gentiles who are at risk of being cut out...It is the people of the gentiles who stand by faith.

    But, as I said before, I cannot convince you, only God can change a heart.

    I think though, if we examine all the passages you use to denounce eternal security, you will see that your doctrine will not stand up to the whole teaching of the believers position in Christ.

    I will examine your other thread, but ask again, where to next?

    I have already stated that I believe Matt. 18 is dealing with Israel, not those who are born again;

    And that Galatians is dealing with those, who, just as they are in Romans, are seeking righteousness by the law.

    So again, what else will you offer to suggest that Christ cannot save those who are in Him?

    God bless.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    No text speaks to unbelievers (jew or gentile) and states that they ARE STANDING only by FAITH.

    No text speaks to unbelievers (jew or gentile) and warns them against the risk of falling from a condition of unbelief.

    This text is explicit about the unbelieving Jews "He is able to GRAFT THEM in AGAIN - IF they do not continue in UNBELIEF".

    Those NOT in the olive tree then are those who are "in unbelief".

    Those who ARE in that olive tree (both Jew and Gentile) are BELIEVERS that stand only by their faith -- at least that is what the text of Romans 11 says.

    Paul is explicit in Romans 11 that the goal is to "SAVE SOME OF THEM" - there is no way to work that around to say "SAVE the entire NATION".

    Rom 11
    13But I am speaking to
    you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles
    , [b]I magnify my ministry,
    14if somehow I might
    move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/B]

    Thus in regard to Romans 11 - OSAS does not fair well at all.

    So then - let us look at Romans 10 next.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

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    12 for there is no distinction between Jew and greek; for the same lord is lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on him;
    13 for whoever will call on the name of the lord will be saved.
    14how then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

    15 how will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
    16 however, they did not all heed
    the Good News; for isaiah says, “lord, who has believed our report?”

    [/quote]

    Paul argues that "they (literal Jews) did not ALL heed" the Good News -

    Paul argues that with God there is no such thing as a division between Jew and Gentile

    So it is no surprise in Romans 11 that believers - both Jew and Gentile are being pictured as grafted into the same olive tree.

    In EVERY nation God hears those who turn to him - whether Jew or Gentile.

    Peter first discovered this truth in Acts 10.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    A couple of points to note.

    1. The reason we see the problems for OSAS that are raised in Romans 11 is because we are holding to strick form of exegesis in the details of Romans 11.

    2. The reason we "like what we read" there is because we do not already hold to the man-made tradition of OSAS before coming to that chapter - so it is easy for us simply to accept it for what it says.

    3. The reason you are having to do so much work trying to get around the problem of Romans 11 for OSAS - is because you come to it with a bias in favor of OSAS.

    4. In Romans 3 and Gal 3 we see that God has placed the entire world under condemnation for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God - every single individual. It matters not what nation they are from.

    Thus ALL need Salvation - ALL are in need of the Gospel.

    And as Romans 11 points out SOME - among both Jew and Gentile HAVE accepted it.


    There is no "making" in this case because even you admitted that those Jews that ARE faithful ARE still in the olive tree - and those unbelieving Jews are ARE removed.

    And Paul is explicit that those IN the Olive Tree "ARE standing ONLY by their Faith".

    Thus no need for the non-OSAS view to attempt to "make anything" beyond what is written in this case.

    It is ALL in the Olive tree -(both Jew and Gentile) that stand "only by their faith"

    There is NO case where we have Jew or Gentile said in Romans 11 to be STILL IN the Olive tree - but they are NOT standing by faith.

    That detail is not at all present in the text itself.

    What we have In the text itself is a WARNING that if someone tries it - they will be removed.

    Well in this case - God would need to add details or change the language in the text of Romans 11 - to get to the point you seem to want out of it.

    I would never argue the point "Christ cannot save those who are IN HIM"

    I would argue "the detail" where Christ HIMSELF points to "branches IN HIM" that are "removed" and "cast into the fire" John 15.

    IN Gal 5 we have another thread to deal with it - but Christ stated that those in Gal 5 "were running well"!

    There is no way to get that worked around to "were never saved".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Jedi Knight

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    Jesus said "I give them ETERNAL LIFE and they shall NEVER perish!" For the Lord Himself has said "I will NEVER leave you,NOR forsake you!" Jesus said again "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will NEVER drive away". Maybe the problem is you should look up the word NEVER in the dictionary. :type:
     
    #11 Jedi Knight, Feb 25, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2010
  12. Darrell C

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    Hi Bob,

    I have said, you will not be convinced with one section (one half of a verse, really) being explained.

    I do, as you say, have to "work" at this in order to try to clarify the passage.

    You take "...and thou standest by faith," and completely ignore three chapters of context to make your claim.

    I could hold the same position with, "for he hat said, I will never leave thee nor forsake thee."

    How can you miss the meaning in that? Seems simple enough.

    See faith in Hebrews:

    10:38-Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

    Basic bible principle: man is justified by faith, old testament, new testament alike.

    v.39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    What is it they are drawing back unto perdition from?

    Answer that question for me.

    I can guarantee you can't because it flies in the face of doctrine that oppses eternal salvation.

    You are trying to prove your position with one verse yanked out of context.

    This is why I ask you to provide more.

    I am confident in the doctrine of eternal security, and I wish you had "the better hope" of the New Covenant.

    Perhaps if you see enough of your passages lose their legs, you might recognize that born again believers are santified once (for all) and are made perfect forever.

    By Christ...not our works.

    Going to look at your Gal. thread now.

    God bless.
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Darrell, your real ability/desire to reason fairly is starting to show. :rolleyes:
     
  14. BobRyan

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    I point to a whole list of inconvenient details IN the Romans 11 chapter itself - not just one verse - that entire list is what OSAS has to survive in Romans 11.

    Romans 11 is not about "Christ leaving the Jews that fell" it is about the Jews leaving Christ.

    thus any promise of the form "I will never leave THEE" cannot be bent to "you will never be able to choose to leave Me".

    Particularly when we see warning after warning in scripture where that very thing is going on.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Darrell C

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    Then I should resort to insults and refuse to answer simple questions?

    Naw, won't do it.

    Okay, what is the perfection of Hebrews 10:14?

    Come on, thats an easy one for one so well versed.

    God bless, I'll check in tomorrow for your answer.
     
  16. Darrell C

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    More scripture?

    God bless.
     
    #16 Darrell C, Feb 25, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2010
  17. BobRyan

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    Anyone that can look at these texts and imagine that they are not talking about "you gentiles" that are "wild branches" that "ARE GRAFTED IN" to the very place FROM which SOME Jews fell -- is using something other than exegesis to study the Bible.

    Rom 11
    13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
    14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/B]


    15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

    16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

    20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.


    Points that cannot be denied.

    1. The target audience is the Gentile reader - believers in Rome.
    2. Gentile Believers in Rome that stand ONLY by their faith.
    3. Gentile Believers in Rome that have been cut off from the wild tree where they started.
    4. Believers in room that HAVE BEEN grafted into to the olive tree - the body of Christ - the ONE spiritual Israel of God.
    5. Believers that have been warned about the risk of falling from that position -- in the same way that others before them had fallen IF they forget that they are standing "by their faith alone".



    Questions that to be answered successfully

    But suppose that the "you only stand by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to also apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as some may have been suggesting.

    The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

    What say you?

    Do the Lost "stand by their faith"??

    Or is that only the saved?

    =======================

    Your response is flawed in these areas.

    1. Paul refers to INDIVIDUALS not an entire ethnic group or nation because HE admits to being one of the Jews and HE states HE is "trying to save SOME of them". Thus the INDIVIDUAL context for Romans 11 is actually IN the text itself.

    2. Paul affirms that THOSE gentiles WHO ARE standing only by their faith WERE cut off from the wild tree AND GRAFTE IN. Paul never claims that all pagans all idolaters are now grafted into the olive tree of the Church of God as UNBELIEVING IDOL worshipping pagans.

    3. Your solution results in UNSAVED pagans grafted in - and still unsaved and NOT standing by their faith -- with SOME other Jews removed from the tree and ALSO unsaved and ALSO not believing.

    Then in your model the instruction "HE is able to GRAFT them in AGAIN IF they do not continue" would result in now-BELIEVING Jews being grafted IN Among 100's of millions of PAGANS and idol worshippers as the glories benefit of BELIEVING.

    Your solution makes total mush out of the text - and the only benefit for that huge sacrifice is an attempt to spare OSAS.

    How can you not see that?

    What did I miss?

    By explicit contrast Paul states that ONLY those who "Stand by their faith" are actually IN the Olive Tree. His warning to the BELIEVING - SAVED Gentiles that "stand only by their faith" is to take notice of that fact - and to persevere in that faith LEST they be removed.

    Much more -- but taking this one section at a time to make sure all are aware of just how clearly OSAS is failing these tests of scripture.

    (1cor 9 comes to mind "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified". Paul is not just warning the GENTILE INDIVIDUALs who "stand alone by their faith" about the need to persevere firm unto the end)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Feb 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2010
  18. BobRyan

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    On the contrary - Paul is clear that those he speaks to must PERSEVERE in their condition. IF their condition were that of an UNBELIEVER he would not be saying that they need to CONTINUE STANDING alone by their faith.

    That is the easy part.

    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

    20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

    21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

    Paul speaks of their GOOD standing with God and that they stand alone by their faith.

    Paul does not say "IF you were to become a Christian THEN you WOULD stand by faith".

    Paul argues that these were the few among the gentiles that because of their decision to follow Christ WERE broken off from their wild tree - and WERE grafted in to the SAVED group of BELIEVERS - and that in that condition they DO "stand by their faith alone" and that this should not leave them to a condition of pride.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Deleted by HP. The whole notion of the definition of the word 'perfect' in a particlar passage of Heb. in a particular sense is off topic and needs a thread of its own. To continue a discussion on this thread of that nature serves no useful purpose to this discussion.
     
    #19 Heavenly Pilgrim, Feb 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2010
  20. Darrell C

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    God bless, my friend.
     

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