Can Someone Persuade Me? I Don't Know...

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by CubeX, Jul 14, 2003.

  1. CubeX

    CubeX
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    I don't know which one to believe, the Calvinistic or Arminianistic view. There are so many verses that promote each one of these views that I am having a hard time. Could you all help me out?

    Thanks! Post, scriptures, arguments, articles, etc.

    -CubeX
     
  2. Aki

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    here's one suggestion: browse!

    every point that can be said here are almost always repeatedly been discussed in the past. look at other threads. more so, try the archives portion.

    while at it you'll also encounter links to many sites promoting each side.
     
  3. CubeX

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    Thanks, I'll do that, but I'd also like to have conversations about each. I know that by a test we took in class, that I am 3-4 point Arminian in belief. Now, that doesn't mean that I am going to fight for it, I'd just like to see which one is the best because I do realize the problems with each side.

    -CubeX
     
  4. LandonL

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    Also, remember this: despite what some would have you believe, Calvinism/Arminianism is NOT an either/or situation. There is some truth in both views, when reconciled by the Spirit.
     
  5. Felix

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    The doctrines of Grace can not be embraced by human persuasion! These discussions can help you though a great deal. It is the Spirit of God however, Who can imprint His eternal Truth's on your heart. It will not happen overnight! Logic and Philosophy are great human tools to obtain knowledge, however, in the light of Scripture prayer and study are the only means to reach true heavenly wisdom.

    P.S.
    Do you realy think this thread would exist if these two could be reconciled? Just how exactly and what part of Calvinism can embrace Arminianism or vice versa, we are not told.

    Serving Christ together,

    Felix [​IMG]

    [ July 15, 2003, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: Felix ]
     
  6. William C

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    CubeX,

    Here is where I believe Calvinists err in their interpretation of the scriptures:

    1. They believe people are unable to believe the gospel because they are born totally depraved, when scripture clearly teaches that the only ones who cannot believe are those who are judicially hardened (John 12:37-41). Judicial hardening, if you study it, you will find is temporary, purposeful and unique to a certain group of people. (Romans 10-11).

    2. They use passages that show God effectually calling of his divinly appointed messengers (prophet/apostles) to preach the gospel and apply them as proof that God effectually calls their audiences as well. Proof that God effectually calls the messenger to preach is not proof that God effectually calls their audiences to listen.

    3. They forget that the major issue of the 1st century was not Calvinism verse Arminianism. It was the idea that God had chosen to included the Gentiles within his covenant. Therefore, they take passages like 2 Thess. 2:13 and apply it to their views of soteriology when in reality Paul was clearly thanking God for his choosing to save the Gentiles even before the foundation of the world through the message the chosen Jewish apostle had brought them.

    4. Calvinists take verses about what believers are predestined to become and misapply them. We, believers, are predestined to become adopted as sons and conformed to Christ's image one day. It hasn't happened yet. But they like to think that somehow means we have all been predestined to believe. That is not what the text says.

    There is much more that could be said, this is just an overview, but I hope it will help you in your search for truth.

    God Bless
     
  7. CubeX

    CubeX
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    You see, the only reason I see any problem with Calvinism is not because of the verses, it's because of the way that the verses are used in accordance with the rest of the Bible. They sometimes seem to change the nature of God. Why would Jesus die for whosoever and then choose? It's not the kindness of Jesus that they seem to support. But then again, Arminianists don't seem to have answers to Calvinists questions like, if we were blind and could not see the light, then how could we go to Jesus? If we cannot hear His voice or see His light, how can we go to Him if we were not choosen by Him.

    I think this whole Calvinistic/Arminianistic thing could be solved by a new, complete read through of the Bible with no will to help either side. That way we could get the true meaning of what the Bible is saying.

    All I know is that I need help, and fast. I'm starting to lose faith because of all of the arguments and people saying there are contradictions with the Bible. It's no longer a child like faith anymore is it?

    Hope I find it soon, before it's too late... :(

    -CubeX
     
  8. tyndale1946

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    Well CubeX... Never fear when you think you have heard all the interpretations then maybe you can be persuaded by the Primitive Baptist... You probably never heard of us but we don't make any bones about what we believe!... Your Eternal Salvation... Thank God!... Is in his hands and his alone... IT IS A GIFT... Eternal Life that is!... You can't obtain by works... You can't buy it... There is nothing YOU can do to get it!... It is free!

    Jesus said he came into the world to save ALL his people... Do you believe it?... Do you think anyone will ever be lost?... If you think you can what power can take God's children out of his hand?... Is there any?... Read Romans 8:28-39 and then come to your own conclusion. I understand your confusion thinking one day you are saved and the next day you are not... This yo-yo salvation I call it but whose finger is the yo-yo tied to?

    Will not God save ALL is grace wrought blood bought children if not then this is not the God of my Bible!... The promises of God are sure having this seal the Lord knoweth them that are his!... Why would you have a knowledge of God and spiritual things if you did not belong to him?... We Primitives do not put any faith in man but ALL our faith in God. You are probably saying to yourself well where is my part in all this... We also believe in a salvation in time!... Not eternal salvation but because you have eternal salvation already you keep timely salvation by your works... Not to give you eternal salvation because that is a gift but to thank the Lord in fellowship and walk what he has done for you!... You obey and follow Christ you are blessed... You disobey you suffer!... BUT YOU CAN NEVER LOSE YOUR ETERNAL SALVATION OR FALL FROM GRACE!... And Satan to get to you being you are in CHRIST JESUS would have to overthrow the GODHEAD!... That is what the Primitives believe and what we believe the Bible teaches... All others we feel are in error!... To each his own!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  9. CubeX

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    Well, i don't feel that all others are in error. I feel like they have a justified reason for believing what they do. I do not believe that I can lose my salvation. I do not see any scripture that literally says that. I know that there are some implements, but none that literally say it.

    -CubeX
     
  10. tyndale1946

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    If there is even any implication that you can lose your eternal salvation then it is not speaking of eternal salvation but timely!... King David lost his timely salvation and suffered for it in this world but he NEVER lost his eternal salvation it was in Christ Jesus!... To each his own!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  11. Frogman

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    Has no man yet lost his timely salvation in some measure?

    Yet God declares:

    "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3.6

    If we are able to lose our eternal salvation then scripture would be untrue when Christ calls that gift through him eternal life.

    Eternal life is a gift of God given only to the sheep of the flock.

    We should check our hearts by scripture and prayer this will establish us in assurance.

    We cannot gain the gift of eternal life by anything we do or do not do; it is in Christ alone.

    We can fall and will from the joy of this in our life (which is in time). This then is found in our obedience; so should we heed the words of Paul to Timothy:

    "Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus" 2 Tim. 2.1

    Being strong in Grace then can we help but to be weak in sin.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]

    You can read or listen to a sermon on the immutability of God here:

    Spurgeon

    The first sermon in the list.
     
  12. Dr. Bob

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    CubeX - Hope you are reading past threads and continuing to learn and grow.

    The debate boils down to the issue of sovereignty. Is GOD 100% in sovereign control of all things (including salvation) or is some small part or action in the choice and control of MAN.

    I personally opt for God. If my salvation depended on Bob doing or thinking or acting on ANYTHING, then Bob gets the glory and Bob is the sovereign, not God. That just won't work for me.
     
  13. tyndale1946

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    AMEN!... Brother Dallas!... Time for some sound preaching and doctrine!... I get tired of hearing of this puny powerless pathetic God! [​IMG] ... Like it or not that is the way I feel!... It is about time we put ALL MIGHTY in front of his name once again!... That is what I believe and where I stand come hell or high water!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  14. CubeX

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    Could someone please define "timely" salvation for me? i've never heard of it. I've been on so many boards and read so many articles, but I've never heard of this. Could you at least give me a link so i can read indepth about it?

    Thanks, and yeah, I do read all of the posts, it's just sometimes I don't understand what they are trying to say! :D

    -CubeX
     
  15. Frogman

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    Dear CubeX,

    Try the following link, it will take you to an article, but is on a web site where you can search and find more articles on time salvation.

    Time Salvation

    Read it along with Scripture, for this article, neither by me nor the author, nor the web site linked to it claim this article to be more authoritative than the Word of God. As you study this topic remember, the first act of obedience to the Lord is not believing, but following Him in Baptism. Apart from our obedience it is impossible that we please, follow, or serve God in any kind of semblance of truth.

    Be sure that I believe as I stated above that this obedience is only permitted by the grace of God. So then we should strive to be in Grace if we desire the joy of our blessings in this world and life.

    Bear in mind the many examples you have heard, read and studied in scripture of God's children such as the example already given of David; you can add to that list many more, there is Jonah, Hezekiah, Peter, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, and the list continues, yet ends at Jesus Christ, our kinsman redeemer, for in all things He alone fulfilled the Will of God to the utmost and has left no jot or tittle undone.

    IMHO, while I am no great Bible scholar, there is found in this teaching the origin of confusion that lays the foundation of the debate this forum hosts.

    It is timely salvation, (or condtional time salvation, or time salvation) that throws many into the idea that man possesses a will and the ability to 'choose' to follow Christ. The Scriptures teach though that the truth shall set you free, that in Christ is liberty, so then, if it is Christ (the Son) that sets us free we are free indeed, then comes the abilities of man. It is only after being awakened to the freedom of eternal salvation in Christ is the child of God able to realize that freedom, any work before is dead work. But having been awakened to our position in Christ eternally, then we are able to choose that which is good or not. It is then by this choice that our joy in time is found.

    Note how that Paul states that the foundation is Christ, He being the foundation then all things are built upon Him alone, or else they are built on a foreign foundation. Being the foundation, there is no more digging left to be done in the since of laying upon solid rock, but in the study of God's Word and by prayer we find are the corners made square.

    I will leave off here for I have no desire to convince you of anything apart from the Word of God assure you of these things.

    May God Richly Bless you in your search for His Truth.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  16. William C

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    CubeX,

    Let me answer this for you. Calvinists teach that man is born unable to see, hear, understand, and believe the gospel message. But it is clear in scripture that we are not born unable to see, hear, understand and believe. We only become that way AFTER we see, hear and understand the things of God and reject them.

    Look at Romans 1. Paul explains that the people clearly saw and understood the things of God.

    20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

    Notice CubeX that these people were not born unable to "clearly see" and "understand" as Calvinists imply. They do see and understand which is exactly why they are without any excuse. If we teach, as Calvin did, that man cannot understand the truth of God, then we give man an excuse for their rebellion.

    Also, notice that Paul says they "BECAME FUTILE"; it does not say they were born that way. They only became that way AFTER they understood and rejected the truth. That is the beginning of the hardening process. (something Heb. 3 warns us to avoid--how do you avoid it if your are born with it?)

    Read Acts 28:24-28, and notice that Israel was hardened because of their continued rebellion. But it clearly says that had they not been hardened they might have seen, heard, understood and turned to God for healing. Also notice in verse 28 that it specifically says that the Gentiles will listen.

    If Calvinists were right in their teaching that all men are born unable to hear, then why would Paul say the Gentiles will listen? They will listen because they have not been hardened as was Israel. Israel was hardened because they had seen and heard for many generations and had rebelled against God.

    Also read John 12:37-41 and you'll notice that it explains why Israel cannot believe. Romans 10 & 11 also give us some insight on hardening.

    I hope this makes sense, if not please ask questions and I'll clarify.

    God bless.
     
  17. Frogman

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    Paul beat you and Calvin both to the thought that man had an excuse, note Rom. 8.5-9

    Paul had no misgivings concerning statements that show mankind totally depraved; if vs. 7 doesn't mean this then what does it mean?

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
    [​IMG]
     
  18. William C

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    Dallas,

    Verse seven simply talks about man's inability to submit to God's law, it says nothing of his inability to believe by faith.

    Throughout the new testament we see striving after God through faith set up in opposition to striving after God through the works of the law. You are trying to equate the two. You can't do that.
     
  19. Aki

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    can't God really choose to respect man's volition? is God's sovereignty limited in such a manner that God cannot choose to say, for example to Adam, "...of every tree you may eat..."?

    God in His sovereignty chose to let man decide, wherein God, on the other hand, would choose to convict, save, etc.

    this then eliminates the issue of sovereignty. it then brings out the issue of total depravity, wherein, if God would let man choose by himself, then none would come to Him. thus, God does Unlimited Atonement until the fifth point of calvinism. this, however, is left for debate, of whether this is what is taught in scriptures.

    the issue of sovereignty, as per my quote, is not the issue at all.
     
  20. Frogman

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    Here is the difference Bro. Bill, if as you say I never show you where or why I disagree with you then read this carefully.

    Noting what you have written and I have quoted above notice that you believe that unless an individual chooses to believe in Christ then they shall die and be lost eternally. I believe that only an individual for whom Christ died, a member of the elect, will be quickened and able to believe.

    I do not believe that men will reject the saving Grace of God.

    Now, having said this, how is it possible for a carnal mind which is enmity against God and not subject to His law, neither indeed can be, to in the end become condenmed?

    Is faith not God's command? Is this then not part of the law of God?

    How can you believe that the mind which is at enmity with God is able to produce any measure of faith?

    The more I read of what you write, the less I understand what you are trying to say and the farther from the simplicity of scripture your topic seems to get. This does not necessarily have to be a fault of yours, but may very well be my own fault. Either way, I just can't understand how that a mind that is declared at enmity with God by the inspired Apostle can be declared by others today that this same carnal mind is able to have faith in God.

    This scripture teaches both faith and obedience to be worked only through the Holy Spirit. That is simply how that I understand it.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     

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