Can someone please explain this to me..

For teaching Bible, one may have had as many Bible courses with an MA as one does with an MDiv. As a matter of fact, one may have had more Bible courses by the time one completes his MA than a grad with an MDiv. The MA in Bible specializes in that. The MDiv, as Rhet said, includes a broad spectrum of course, including Bible, church history, theology, practical courses, etc.

The reason that an MA would get similar recognition as an MDiv is that an MA is typically built upon the student's undergrad degree. Such a student would consequently have had more Bible through his bachelor's and master's degrees than a typical graduate with an MDiv.

The MDiv is typically not built upon a bachelor's degree, though there are more students coming to seminary with BA's in Bible and such. Most MDiv's though, have bachelor's degrees in non-biblical areas. My undergrad was secondary education, for instance.

The MRE and the MACE are basically the same degree, if I remember correctly. MACE is the more contemporary nomenclature and would not include as much Bible as would an MA in Bible.

All of this said, with the preponderance of PhD's looking for teaching positions, it is becoming more unlikely that a candidate with only an MA or an MDiv will secure a college or university long-term teaching position. Adjunct? Yes. Full time? Doubtful.

Blessings,
Bill

 

Pastor Shaun,

You wouldn't be a preacher in Indiana would you?

 

That is exactly the situation in my case. I earned a B.A. in Biblical Studies and History of Ideas (double major). Then I earned a M.A. in Intercultural Studies. So I had my entire undergrad course work in Biblical Studies under my belt when I entered the Masters program. The core Biblical classes required for my M.A. were identical to those required for my classmates working on their MDiv degrees. Plus I had four semesters of NT Greek (8 semester hours required in college and 6 semseter hours required in seminary). Those of us who had Biblical Studies undergards were miles ahead of the MDiv guys who came to seminary with undergrads in Accounting, Engineering, Elementary Ed., etc. (when they first arrived).

 

I believe that MDivs should be abandoned all together. IMO, the whole system would be better off with an undergraduate degree based on the five-year engineering model. Those with a previous BA or those with an AA could shave two years off of the program, leaving the 90 hrs of ministry classes. Those who desired more academic study could earn an MA/PhD, structured like in many secular fields (MA in passing, PhD after dissertation). Those who wanted to do a ministry-focused track could get a master's in a DMin style format.

 

The MDiv assumes a non-theological BA. It the minimum foundation for pastoring. It used to be called the BDiv (Bachelor of Divinity). You enter an MDiv with a BA for a reason ... to ensure that there is a solid undergraduate foundation. The "ministry focused track in a DMin style" misses the whole point that you can't even apply for a DMin until you have an MDiv and at three-five years of actual ministry experience.

Far from doing away with the MDiv, I would do away with pastors who don't have them from a reputable institution. They are the foundation needed for pastoring a church.

The problem in the church today is that we have too many practitioners and not enough theologians because pastors didn't take their calling seriously enough to go and become a theologian before trying to teach theology. The practice of pastoring should be built on the foundation of the theological basis of the MDiv.

While I am at it, I think a focused MDiv is a mistake. The point of an MDiv is to teach one how to study what they need to know. It needs to consist of 20 hours of Greek, 14-16 hours of Hebrew, 12 hours of Systematic, 6-10 hours of church history, 2-4 hours of hermeneutics, 2-4 hours of apologetics, 4-6 hours of homiletics. 4-6 hours of ministry management, church polity, and leaderhip, and some room for a few electives in areas of particular interest.

We need not dumb down pastors to give more degrees. We need to raise the level of pastors by raising expectations.

Let's face it ... a lot of what we see on the BB comes from people whose pastors do not and did not take theological education seriously. It is a blight on the church.

 

Well said.

Bill

 

I understand that the the MDiv assumes a non-theological BA. I think this does a great disservice to those who have earned theological BAs.

Regarding the ministry-focused degree...note: I said that it would be a masters, not a doctorate. It would be a master's in practical theology based on the week/two-week seminar format. Besides, I'm talking about a complete revolution of the system. A solid undergraduate foundation in liberal arts is helpful. However, a BA in psychology doesn't teach you how to exegete Greek. A BS in Biology won't help you in Church History. The solution isn't to require a superfluous degree: it is to require remediation if the student isn't up to par. If you can't make it, you can't graduate. Besides, there are plenty of poor students with BAs.

Good luck on getting native pastors in India, then. My point is not to "dumb-down" the MDiv or to require anything less in the program. It simply removes the requirement to have a BA prior to admission.

I don't deny the need for theological study, but I think requiring a specific degree or number of hours goes way beyond the scriptures.

One of the biggest complaints about seminary from pastors is that it doesn't prepare the minister in practical matters. I'd place more emphasis in that area than your outline provides.

The nomenclature of the degree doesn't matter; the training does.

While theological education is essential, one need not possess an MDiv to have an orthodox theology. I don't care about the source of the education, whether through an academic institution, through personal study, or through mentoring. History has shown that the MDiv is no antidote to heresy.

 

Not really. I had a very solid theological BA and the MDiv was way beyond that. Perhaps some have a weak MDiv and are surprised that it isn't a challange.

This is exactly why you can't (or shouldn't do away with the MDiv). The poor BAs, the practical stuff, all that doesn't help make theologians.

I am talkking about an American context, not foreign.

The hours stems from what years of experience have taught us about what is necessaty to pastor and lead in the church. The number of hours isn't the issue; it's the content.

If they complain about that, that is a sign, to me, that they don't understand what it is about. MDiv is not about practical training. It is about theological foundation. If you learn practical stuff in seminary, it is useless ten years later because people, times, and culture hav changd. You have to go learn it again. And you have to spend your weeks learning theology. If you learn theology in seminary, that will never change. And ten years from now, you won't have a wasted seminary education because you learned practical stuff.

The other remedy is for seminary to actually be involved in a church during seminary. That's where you learn. A classroom can teach you theology; it can't teach you to minister to people.

This is true. But a solid MDiv program helps to ensure that one is not "rolling their own" when it comes to theology.

 

I can think of little more useless in my own MDiv training than the practical courses, and I have been in the ministry for almost 30 years. If I remember correctely (from reading, not from having been there!) one of the reasons why Machen became disenchanted with Princeton Seminary was its growing interest in practical courses, in addition to it turning leftward theologically.

Bill