Featured can someone who hold to Lordship salvation define it?

If what you describe actually is Lordship salvation, I agree with it completely. But I don't agree with you that what JohnMac and others teach is what you're describing.

On pages 173-175 of The Gospel According to Jesus, JohnMac states these principles of what he believes about faith and obedience being inextricably intertwined:

• Faith encompasses obedience,
• obedience is an integral part of saving faith,
• and obedience is bound up in the very definition of faith, being a constitutive element in what it means to believe.
• Any concept of faith that excludes obedience must be rejected because obedience is "indivisibly wrapped up in the idea of believing,"
• the character of true faith is nothing less than the "higher righteousness" of the Beatitudes of Matthew 5:3-11.
• He even suggests that obedience is synonymous with faith,
• and he quotes with approval Rudolf Bultmann's dictum, "To believe is to obey."

He's wrong. He's close, but he's wrong.

• Faith encompasses a desire for obedience, but it does not exclude faith among the disobedient, as Mac implies.
• Obedience is an integral part of the Christian walk, but not salvation.
• Obedience is not the very definition of faith, but of faith in action.
• There is no "invisible wrapping" of obedience in any of the Old or New Testament concepts of faith.
• The Beatitudes are progressive sanctification, not obedience that is present at the moment of belief.
• He reiterates the same error he made in claiming obedience is "invisibly wrapped" in faith by claiming it is also synonymous with faith,
• and there is absolutely nothing, yet again, in the concept of "believing" that implies "obedience."

Without going into a lengthy tome here, I will summarize by saying obedience comes with sanctification, and while some comes immediately with faith, there is so much more to it that the new believer can not possibly know at that moment. That requires time, study, discipleship, and love.

 

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU..........:applause:

You reading this WILLIS?

 

Your response ignores the issue completely.You as some of the others are speaking about sanctification.....apart from the Lordship issue.

 

Christ is Lord of all as you rightly said in your first post. That means He is Lord of unbelievers and believers alike. We are saved by grace through faith. We are NOT saved by making him Lord, for He is already Lord. This is the misconception. Our faith is not in Him as Lord, but rather in his atoning work that it is sufficient enough to pay the penalty for our sins. We are sinners in need of a Saviour. Who is going to pay, and how is he going to pay for our sins? It is Christ, and the payment was made at the cross. We know the payment was completed because of the resurrection. That is our proof.

In John one, as extra detail, we are given further information as to whom Christ is: He is our Creator, He is the Word; the only begotten of the Father; rejected of his brethren; God come in the flesh; the Lamb of God; the Son of God; the Messiah, the Christ; the King of Israel.

As Creator, He is Lord. He always has been. But as a sinner we need a Savior.
If he is our Creator, then once he is our Savior He demands our obedience, but not until we submit to him.
As Lord, even the unbeliever will recognize that he is Lord, but will not submit to him. Some will not recognize him as Lord and will live a life rebelling against him such as we have in the on-going uprisings in Syria and other nations that are trying to depose their leaders. Wars will continue to the end.
The true believer goes through a gradual process of sanctification where more and more he submits to his sovereign Lord as he recognizes his ultimate authority over every area of his life. He may not recognize this from the day that he became a citizen of his nation.

Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

 

:laugh: No, it focuses the issue so you and others can't ramble all over the landscape and try to obfuscate and blur the real discussion, which is the attachment of salvation to obedience, a concept that is very nearly heretical, if not outright so.

Sanctification cannot be separated from Lordship. However, salvation can and should be, in fact is, so separated. It is not salvation that is accomplished through the Lordship of Christ, but sanctification.

That is not to say that we do not see Jesus as Lord upon the moment of our conversion. Perhaps some do not immediately grasp that concept, and even that does not mean they are not saved. The effectual grace of God to inspire inner heart-conviction of Christ as Savior, the confession of that heart that the conviction is true, and God's acceptance of that confession as sincere and true, is all that is necessary for salvation.

What that separation does say is that we can't see to what extent we will be sanctified over the course of our Christian walk. We don't even know everything we are supposed to do as a follower of Christ at that moment. That comes with growth through study, prayer, discipleship and the love of both Christ and our brothers and sisters in Him.

 

Nine pages and counting, blah blah blah.

Salvation comes in three phrases:

(1) Positional Sanctification where a person is transferred from being outside of Christ, in Adam, in the realm of darkness, to being in Christ, in the kingdom of His Son. It is an act of God alone.

(2) Progressive Sanctification where a person in Christ continues to physically live in the world. In this phase, we strive to follow Christ, i.e. avoiding sin, and to serve Christ, i.e. evangelize or enable evangelism. Whether we are fully committed to this or not, we are still saved but enter heaven as one escaping from a fire, bringing little or no rewards.

(3) Ultimate Sanctification where we are raised in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.​

In the confused gibberish of the Lordship debate, two ideas are juxtaposed; the need for a wholehearted commitment to love and follow Christ as part of our faith in Christ as savior and lord, and the need to strive to follow Christ after we have been born anew. The first idea, strength of faith, is something God rules on - if He credits our faith as righteousness and puts us spiritually in Christ, we are saved and set apart, sanctified positionally.

 

Amen! :applause:

Again......thank you

 

It might sound like blah, blah, blah, to somebody who's just weary from hearing all the arguments that really don't convert anyone's thinking. I cannot fault anyone for that take on it.

But, some of the responses have been following the main question of "What is it", not why it is wrong.

The issue is not as simple as whether our faith includes works, or if works should grow out of our faith. The ultimate issue is access into grace. Both sides agree on the surface with "Sola Fide", but each side has a different view of what that means.

There is one side which says we are saved when we believe the gospel, or believe in Christ, or believe the promise of God, or maybe a few other ways of wording it. And that it brings immediate assurance of eternal life

The other side says that we believe the gospel, and that is necessarily and inevitably accompanied by works. That faith and works are bound up together. And we really cannot know til our life is over whether we cut the mustard or not.

In view of these two positions, how are we supposed to proclaim Christ?
Scripture gives us two major components of obtaining eternal life - merit and access

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The merit is found only in Christ, and all orthodox denominations/sects/factions agree. The disagreement is access.

Do we access grace through faith, or works, or a cooperation of the two together, or a blending of the two into one ?

Scripture says Not of Works
Romans 4:5 says But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

Funny how some like to rail against "works salvation", yet espouse even worse. Water baptism? Oh, that's works salvation. Sabbath observance? Oh, that's works salvation
Then go talk out of the other side of their mouth that works are an integral aspect of saving faith

The one-time work of baptism is rejected as a works salvation
The weekly work of Sabbatarians is rejected as works salvation
But the daily work of trying to justify one's self to men is accepted as "Faith Alone"

Uhhh, yeah.

And if you don't believe that's what Lordship Salvation proponents are advocating, just pick up a commentary by one of these "scholars" and read the notes on James 2:14-26

The bottom line in this is that what we view as access into grace can quickly turn into our view of merit also.

How many believe that Christ died to merit salvation, and that it is accessed through baptism, then later develop into the thinking that they're saved be-cause they were baptized?

How many believed at one time that they were saved "through" faith, then later develop into the thinking that they're saved be-cause "I called on the Lord"

Hogwash, that's a work. Nobody was ever saved by any cause other than Christ.
And nobody was ever saved through any access other than faith.
And if faith is not faith alone, then it isn't faith. That means it isn't a biblical gospel.

That's what all the blah blah blah is all about.

The other side says, "But you're leaving out Ephesians 2:10, that we were created for Good works, that we should walk in them."

That's very true. But it also says that we Are HIS workmanship. Everybody from the other side has become a self appointed fruit inspector, always looking for "Fruit" in someone's life.

They're nitpicking God's orchard. It's HIS work. And they aren't content leaving Him to do his work. They think they've got to micromanage everything God's doing in a man?

 

Faith does not include works, faith is a frame of mind, a mental attitude, a belief and commitment to Christ. There is no issue.

Yes, some say that but it is totally unbiblical. We are saved when God puts us spiritually in Christ. If we are in Christ, we are saved, if not in Christ, we are not saved. He is the propitiationary shelter that provides salvation. All these "faithomatic" claims of salvation automatically occurring if we believe the right laundry list of things hard enough is simply wrong.

More nonsense, if God puts us in Christ, we become a new creation, created for good works. Thus from the faith that God credits as righteousness, works flows, such as the fruit of the Spirit. Scripture tells us by examining ourselves we can know we are of the faith.

Ignore both of those mistaken positions and proclaim what the bible actually says.

Access is provided by faith alone Romans 5:2

Yes they do and they are wrong.

More nonsense, our faith pre-salvation is just another "filthy rag" in God's eyes. Our faith has no merit in and of itself. It is God alone who credits or not, our faith as righteousness, turning a sows ear into a silk purse.

And they would be wrong yet again, they are saved because God in His mercy, credited our faith as righteousness and spiritually placed us in Christ.

Spot on.

We seem to agree, the good works of progressive sanctification comes after we are saved forever by positional sanctification. Now we are just discussing how "abundantly" we enter heaven.

 

Thanks, ... uh ... Governor, is it? :laugh: :thumbsup:

 

thisnumbersdisconnected

laugh:

,

That you do not understand what JM writes....does not mean we are blurring
the real issue.

Whatever you think this means....no Cal does this.

 

Self appointed fruit inspector....oh, I like that. This is well put James.

I will just add one thing to your commentary......it is Christ that is the WORD. The gospel points that out. You know what I'm saying.

Blessings.....Ps you should meet up with Preacher4Truth. He is a good guy trying to build a real church (a REAL CHURCH)

 

Have a donut...it relaxes me. Lol:laugh:

 

Puritans do!

 

As I showed in an earlier post, JMac does. And you appear to be extremely confused, because you've inadvertently defended the position on this thread by obscuring the meaning JMac gives it by obfuscating the discussion with input about how Christ is Lord, which isn't germane to the contentions of the majority of those who advocate Lordship Salvation on this thread.

 

Ya know, I started wondering, in that other thread, if Preacher4Truth might be my own pastor. My pastor and I don't always agree, and we sit and chat quite a bit trying to get to know one another.

I haven't been with our church very long, and he's testing the spirits while I'm happily submitting to the position which God has called him to. It's a real blessing

 

Post a quote...let's see it.