Can the elect be deceived

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Kay, Mar 3, 2008.

  1. Kay

    Kay
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    “For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.” Matthew 24:24
     
  2. skypair

    skypair
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    This deception concerns one particular thing -- "the lie." The saints cannot be deceived into believing that there is any "way out," any salvation, besides Christ. These "signs and wonders" will be very powerful -- powerful enough to convince that there is no Christ or that, if He is, Satan can defeat Him.

    But today we can verify this. Many heard from and believed Hymenaeus who said that the resurrection had already come. He "made shipwreck" the faith of many. He didn't "unsave" them -- but their faith "couldn't transport their daily lives" anymore. To my understanding of this, they had no witness, no hope, no joy, even lost insight into the truths of scripture.

    skypair
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Actually this is a reference to the same "deception" that we see in
    2Thess 2 and Rev 13.


    2Thess 2
    9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
    10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.


    11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
    12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.


    Rev 13
    13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.
    14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
     
  4. Sgt. Fury

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    One word: Pope.
     
  5. TCGreek

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    In some instances, only for a season.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Are you thinking that the Pope will call fire down from heaven and perform Miracles?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Sgt. Fury

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    I'd be hard pressed to find an example of it, to be sure, but many of the characteristics of the man of sin/son of perdition (2 Thes 2:3) are found in the office of Pope. There may be other options.
     
  8. windcatcher

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    I think, (caveat, this is my opinion...needs Biblical test so use ),some of the very elect WILL be deceived up to the point of a final temptation: At that point, all will become clear and the 'elect' will hold fast to that which is true, and will strive against evil even to the very death or fall due to the habits, and exercise of their past judgements.

    The reason I believe some of the elect will be deceived up until a final and terminal point of temptation is because the elect are also in this world system: Many, who claim they are God's children, don't search his Word for instruction and application: Many of the elect are involved in the very support which brings evil men to power, because they use the world's ways of judging who is a good leader and who is a bad leader.... and follow personalities and opinion: They do not test with the Word of God for the truth or in choosing their leaders or support or disapproval of law. And, sadly, many don't recognize their citizenship duties 'as unto the LORD' as they may identify their call to service, or family provider, or parent, or neighbor. True, not everyone is called to the same task or effort, but all accept a general call to obediance in those things with which they have some power.

    Notice how in these scriptures, the love of the truth in the elect is the spy glass through which deception is prevented.


    Life is made of choices,
    choices determine direction,
    direction determines destiny:
    resistance to change course increases with progression;
    one's choices are based upon the 'truth' which that person receives:
    In eternity, all will know the truth regardless of their destiny.

    The love of the truth includes;
    searching for the truth
    recognizing the truth when it is found
    accepting the authority of the truth
    trusting the truth
    applying the truth to decisions in daily walk
    reviewing/ remembering the blessings of applied truth
    declaring the truth to others:
    declare warning when seeing signs of deception
     
  9. BobRyan

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    I think that the texts above about "Calling fire down from heaven in the sight of men" and "causing all men to wonder after the beast... to worship the image" etc has a lot to do with trying to convince people of what "truth is" and is not.

    In Matt 7 we already know that many will arrive at the last day "claiming to be saved" but in fact they aren't -- according to the text they are "decieved into thinking they are saved".

    How sad.

    But the "signs and wonders" and the "Fire coming down from heaven" has much more meaning than just "this will convince you that you are saved even though you are not". The Bible warns against "worshipping the beast" and I think this is the real problem. People will engage in acts of obedience - acts of worship that specifically honor the beast rather than the true God.

    In the Gospels Christ claimed that "men will seek to kill you THINKING that they are doing God a service". This was true even among the Jews with Saul who later became Paul. Saul did not say to himself "I am in service to the beast not the God of the Bible and I like false worship". This was never Saul's position "to himself" yet it was his position in reality.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. windcatcher

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    I think this has a lot of historic perception: However, I think we would be more watchful and observant if we did not have this presumption.

    The man of sin/son of perdition.... is not going into his power with those words flashing in neon lights. He will come in quietness: He will come with charisma: He will come with all the 'right' professions: He will win favor with his flatteries: He will promise end of troubles having a 'remedy' or a 'solution' for every problem: He will appear to have loyalties to others, be it a people, a nation, humanity: He will appear to have principals: It is likely his ascent will be so quietly obscure that he will be a 'wonder' universally welcomed and accepted with a history censored or hidden so that people will not know that in his background there is already occult involvment and dark deeds.

    Regarding the times and the people that help bring this person to power:
    Chances are the times will be so extreme, the difficulties and insecurities and concern for life and safety so precarious that people will be distracted by their own circumstances and fearful: Instead of walking in faith..... which few have....almost all will be involved and distracted by their efforts to stablelize life and their willingness to consider any 'solution' as 'good' no matter how far fetched: Too busy to question; too accepting 'what is told'; Chances are the confusion created by events will have their judgement so cloudied that any 'group' of people who are 'blamed' for their distress will be accepted without question and persecuted as the 'cause' of troubles. Nero did it to Christians. Hitler did it to Jews; And the pulpits preached Christian obediance to 'ceasar' to one of the most Christianized countries in the northern hemisphere....after which the deception was removed regarding their leader, and the faith was abandoned by those who trusted the preachings of man for the leadership of God.

    I think the Jewish people and those identified as Christian will be persecuted. I think there are many Christians that are setting up the Christian and Jewish community for persecution...... by our very failure to take seriously the duty to be watchmen on the wall: By the very support and power we 'give' to those who will later become our persecutors..... because we are 'deceived', or blinded, or believe what we want to hear. It is "Christians" who are lazily and blindly supporting the very people who make the laws which will enslave us..... and the world will hold us responsible for not watching, warning, and for becoming part of the problem......instead of bold with the answer.... trust God and repent! The world expects Christians to know the times we live in: The world will hold us responsible for our failure to warn when we saw the tide was turning... And many who are close to the kingdom will fall away because of the deception of Christians whom they trusted.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Historically the great Reformers and the Bible commentary writers of the 18th and 19 centuries made the same application that you have made to the Pope as found in 2Thess 2.

    You are in good company in pointing that out.

    I myself think that the ultimate example (the most perfect fulfillment of what is being predicted in 2Thess 2) will be an action done by Satan himself near the end of time.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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